Dimensions: Paper Space or Model Space

Scott McKenzie

 I have been thinking about this off and on since I started drafting; what space should one place dimensions in.  Your two options have their pitfalls, but also their benefits:  

If dimensioning in paper space, you don't need to have a dimension style setup for every scale, but you need to adjust the scale factor for the primary and alternative units.  Associative dimensions  don't work, and moving things around can be a bit of a headache, however if you change the scale of a drawing, things get much easier as you don't have to change the style (especially for leaders which can be a lot of work).

Dimensions placed in model space require a dimension style for every scale used - which can be cumbersome to work with but the intent is a lot easier to follow (you don't have to use overrides as much or change parameters in individual dimensions). Your dimensions can be associative as well, but now your file sizes start to balloon as you define more text and dimension styles.

I guess the only other options are to neglect to use paper space, and draw everything in model space or to use annotative dimensions - is this possible in Bricscad?

So what do other users here do to dimension 2D objects?

Edward A Fenzl

I believe that from the Software development intent and courses I've taken on CAD, Paperspace has always been the workspace for Titleblock, text, dimensions, North Arrow, scale bar, etc.  Another perspective: anything which does not exist at the Site, building, mechanical part in your Modelspace drawing.
The reason?  ............so that complex drawings remain uncluttered for zooming in and printing of the "Site"/"MechanicalPart"

Philip Craven

 I agree with you broadly that paper space annotation is not perfect, but some of your comments I don't agree with or at least don't understand.

> ...but you need to adjust the scale factor for the primary and alternative units [in paper space].

When you apply the appropriate dimension entity in paper space to a model space entity visible in a viewport the primary value will simply be the "length" of the entity - no scale factor needed. You do need to input a scale factor for alternate units but I do not see how it could be otherwise.

> Associative dimensions  don't work [in paperspace]...

I believe they actually do, at least in many cases. You can apply transforms to model space geometry (such as scale, stretch, etc) and existing paperspace dimensions will update correctly.

> ...moving things around can be a bit of a headache...

Too right. Maybe it would be possible to add a feature locking a viewport to a collection of modelspace entities?

Not yet mentioned in the discussion are all the controls available in paperspace viewports for the display: the ability to freeze layers on a per viewport basis, etc. These features tip the balance for me decidedly in favor of paperspace dimensions, but I would admit that for very simple drawings model space dimensioning may have an advantage.

In addition to the entity move issue you mentioned, as far as I know it is not possible to copy a collection of model space entities along with any paper space entities that may be associated with them, as you can with model space entities + model space dimensions. The ability to do this great when you want to create a variant of an existing design that is already dimensioned. I suppose you could say this is where parametric dimensions come in, but the simplicity of copying is appealing.

By the way Bricscad automatically adjusts a paperspace viewport's display scale if you scale the viewport. This is very nice, and another well known CAD program doesn't do it.

D. R. C.

@Scott McKenzie:

 So what do other users here do to dimension 2D objects?

With AutoCAD I would always use Paper Space for dimensioning. In Bricscad I faced an issue which I sent as a support request:

When I worked with AutoCAD, I used to draw dimensions in Paper Space. This way, you only need to set up one style and, by just copying it and modifying Unit parameters, you can draw dimensions in all the different scales you have in your viewports, for all the 'geometry' of the style will remain the same.
For instance, if I draw in meters and have a viewport with a 1:1 scale, I will get dimensions in meters. If I want to get them in centimeters, all I have to do is change 'Dim scale linear' to 100. This also works in Bricscad, but with random errors: sometines you will get '2' instead of '200' (cm). When this occurs, you need to use 'Apply dimension style' on the wrong measure to put it right.
Even sometines dimensions that have been corrected will turn wrong again after closing and opening the drawing.
I haven´t seen this behaviour in Model Space.

Here the answer:

Thank you for reporting this. We confirm the problem. We will investigate it and keep you updated.

And later...

Thank you for providing me with the test file. Investigation with the test file lead to the conclusion that your use case doesn't work in bricscad at all. Only by coincidence it gave the results you expected.
If you selected the cm dimstyle, you had to snap your first dim point on the entity in the viewport and not on another dimension. Then by coincidence the DIMFLAC for the dimension was set to 100 because the scale factor of the viewport is 1/100 and not because the DIMLFAC of the dimstyle was 10000.
If you selected the m dimstyle, you had to snap your first dim point on another dimension and not on the entity in the viewport. In that case the dimension was not associated with the viewport and DIMFLAC was never updated for the dimension. The measurement was a measurement in paper space, but by coincidence the scale factor of the viewport is 1/100 resulting in an apparent measurement in meters and not because the DIMLFAC of the dimstyle was 100.
We were unaware of this use case in acad, so this new feature will have to be implemented. It has been scheduled.

To this day, I have no news about this being solved, and have no intention of upgrading. Have Bricscad 12 users checked this out? I

John Gaunt

When the next guy only sees a paper drawing it doesn't matter much how you produced it, but when the file goes to someone else to work with it's a total pain when the notes and dimensions aren't with the entities. And dangerous when dimensions carry scaling factors.

Many companies specifically ban all but the title block and Vports in Pspace - it pays to check requirements.

D. R. C.

@John Gaunt:

When the next guy only sees a paper drawing it doesn't matter much how you produced it, but when the file goes to someone else to work with it's a total pain when the notes and dimensions aren't with the entities. And dangerous when dimensions carry scaling factors.

Unless you don´t have anyone next to you and don´t need to send any dwg files to any company because only pdf files go out of your office. 

John Gaunt

That'd be like when the next guy only sees a paper drawing..

John TeSelle

My system may be different from the norm, but I never use paperspace.  All my work is in modelspace.  Title blocks are brought in as XREF and scaled appropriately according to the sheet scale.  Plans, sections, etc. are brought in as XREFs also but are generally not scaled.  I use XCLIP a lot to create different views of the XREF as needed.  I do set DIMSCALE, etc. for each modelspace DWG file as needed.  Of course each sheet is its own DWG.  

When I do need to have different scale drawings on the same sheet, one of them will not be "actual size" in the DWG and I'll have to use a scale factor in the dimension units (override).  That has not been a big problem for me, as I don't usually have different scales on the same sheet.

XCLIP really makes this all possible -- it has improved enough in the newer versions of Bricscad that when using demand loading, etc. I can have 15 xclipped images from the same XREF and performance is still fine (but I have a fast computer).

John Gaunt

That's not too unusual. Pspace is a relatively recent feature and for some time was not very fast, reliable or universal. For one sheet drawings there is often little if any benefit, for multiple sheets xref and xclip can effectively address most though not all issues.

Our state govt still bans Pspace in their contracts which most detailers find annoying and frustrating, but I have noticed most building consultants here (distinct from detailers) avoid it in all their projects.

Perhaps it's because they must collaborate inside and outside the office, perhaps not everyone who comes and goes operates the same way in Pspace or even got on board with it - there are 30 year cad veterans now and many self-taught.

Many large projects are often revised, revisited and recycled, by different operators. 'Unpicking' pspace files can become a problem.

I do all ways depending on the situation.

Philip Craven

> This also works in Bricscad, but with random errors: sometines you will get '2' instead of '200' (cm). When this occurs,

> you need to use 'Apply dimension style' on the wrong measure to put it right.

I have V12 and I have had a problem that may be related. Drawings that are edited alternately in Bricscad and AutoCAD can have problems with paperspace dimensions not displaying correctly in AutoCAD. The dimension value is in error by a scale factor equal to the paperspace viewport scale. I sent tech support drawing files that (I thought) clearly illustrated the problem but they do not see anything wrong. When I get a chance I will try to follow up on this with them.

D. R. C.

@John Gaunt:

Our state govt still bans Pspace in their contracts which most detailers find annoying and frustrating, but I have noticed most building consultants here (distinct from detailers) avoid it in all their projects.

...

Many large projects are often revised, revisited and recycled, by different operators. 'Unpicking' pspace files can become a problem.

Here we are talking about two different problems:

1. The pertinency of using Paper Space when working with others. This is something subjective, and I agree with you it might involve some trouble.

2. The ability of Bricscad to manage dimensions in Paper Space. It is objective that Bricscad fails here.

John Gaunt

DRC, the thread heading is "Dimensions: Paper Space or Model Space" and Scott's original question is what I am addressing.

Apparently Bricscad has some issues with dims in pspace and I hope they are resolved for you.

For someone deciding which way to choose I thought I could contribute some helpful background.

D. R. C.

@John Gaunt:

For someone deciding which way to choose I thought I could contribute some helpful background.

And so did I. I think we both have contributed.

Tim Neumann

And here I thought working in model space exclusively was just for "old fossils" like me. Been at this for (22) years and have only had maybe 1-2 instances where mspace was a problem. I'm just a one-man band where I work so prefer to keep things simple - draw everything to scale and just adjust the titleblock, dimscales & etc. accordingly. Thought about taking some night classes for the latest Acad just to get the feel of Pspace but keep putting it off.

Robt Deans

"...taking some night classes for the latest Acad just to get the feel of Pspace but keep putting it off"
Old ACAD adage: There are two types of people: "Those that love Paperspace, and those that don't understand it."
IMHO, put your nose in a book(s) to learn the function / benefits of PS (save time / $ of night courses)
I guarantee, you will gain enlightenment.
Cheers

John Gaunt

I had heard the one which says Acad releases are are like Star Trek movies - only the even numbers were good, but loving pspace depends on it being appropriate or helpful for your work and without hiccups. You won't know that until you try it.

But Tim I hope when you say everything to scale you mean full size, scaling dims and text to suit the plot scale?

Tim Neumann

Yeah whenever possible I draw full scale. To clarify when I have 2-3 different details on the same sheet then each detail will be scale differently to fit on a letter size sheet of paper. Try fitting a pressure vessel 8ft dia. x 160 ft. lg. full scale on a small sheet of paper and you'll understand what I'm against. If we ever get a D or E size plotter then then all these scaling issues will be taken care of.

As for getting "my nose in a book" on paper space I'm up for suggestions. What version of Acad do I need to get a book on that would cover this in a way that's related to Bricscad?

Robt Deans

"I have 2-3 different details on the same sheet then each detail will be scaled differently to fit on a letter size sheet of paper"
Ouch (if I understand correctly).
"What version of Acad do I need to get a book on that would cover this in a way that's related to Bricscad?"
If you grasp fundamentals of paperspace in AutoCAD, you will have NO problem utilizing it in Bricscad. I would think any release from 14 thru 2006 should suffice. I might also suggest Googling for free tutorials ("AutoCAD understanding paperspace tutorial" or similar) should yield a bunch-o results.
Good luck!

John Gaunt

Robt is right.

I draw buildings which would never fit on a sheet, so in mspace the border is say 50 times full size and plotted at 1:50 from there, or else a border in pspace contains 'snapshots' or ports cut into mspace. The pspace border can be sheet size 1:1 (as I do) or 50:1 as you choose, you adjust at plot time to fit the paper.

Out of scale details are just different scaled snapshots in pspace, still drawn full size in mspace.

There are ways of avoiding wrong-scale details in mspace, but for anything complicated non 1:1 is a pain to work with. It's more than just flipping the scale rule.

Philip Craven

Tim Neumann wrote:

> To clarify when I have 2-3 different details on the same sheet then

> each detail will be scale differently to fit on a letter size sheet of paper.

I was taught there are two correct ways to plot details at different scales on the same sheet one obviously being paperspace. The alternative (and obviously the only "approved" way before paperspace came along) was to draw geometry at full scale, add dimensions to it, then create a block of the geometry + dimensions. To create the different scale view on the drawing sheet insert this block at the appropriate scale. (So yes you need to have set the dimscale for the dimensions in this block with the block scale you later intend to use in mind.) The benefits include it is obvious to anyone (and you 3 months later) what is going on, you can edit a copy of the block if needed at full scale and update the one on the drawing sheet, etc. I still sometimes use this for really simple quick and dirty drawings. For everything else I use paperspace. 

Philip Craven

Tim Neumann wrote:

> To clarify when I have 2-3 different details on the same sheet then

> each detail will be scale differently to fit on a letter size sheet of paper.

I was taught there are two correct ways to plot details at different scales on the same sheet one obviously being paperspace. The alternative (and obviously the only "approved" way before paperspace came along) was to draw geometry at full scale, add dimensions to it, then create a block of the geometry + dimensions. To create the different scale view on the drawing sheet insert this block at the appropriate scale. (So yes you need to have set the dimscale for the dimensions in this block with the block scale you later intend to use in mind.) The benefits include it is obvious to anyone (and you 3 months later) what is going on, you can edit a copy of the block if needed at full scale and update the one on the drawing sheet, etc. I still sometimes use this for really simple quick and dirty drawings. For everything else I use paperspace. 

Jim Canale

Philip,

I stumbled across this thread, while looking for help with something else.  I saw your suggestion to create a block with the object and dimensions, and and paste the block into paperspace.  What a great idea!    And simple too!   I don't know why I never thought of it.

Thanks.

Jim C.

Liam Callaghan

 I do all my notes and details in model space with single or multiple viewports.  I always try and make the viewports the same scale but it's not always possible and not complicated to set them up. We have a single dimension style and multileader style, all annotative to 3.5mm height in paperspace.  Two text styles for 3.5mm and 5.0mm height text (again in paperspace).

I draw all my details to 1:1 in m or mm depending on the actual item, but always to scale.  I don't see any benefit in drawing your details at weird scales when your viewports do all the scaling for you and you can swap scales on the fly.

So for example I am detailing up a manhole and outlet structure for a storm drain and want to show three details.  Two details at 1:50 and one at 1:20.

All three details are drawn 1:1 to their actual sizes in model space.  I often draw a little box around them (in Defpoints) with a note under it for the related scale I am going to work in just in case one of the junior guys use it later.  A simple enough prompt or note for them to see.

Right click on the Annotation Scale in the status Bar and set to 1:50 (this sets my model scale to 1:50) and I do my notes and dimensions on the 1:50 details.

Repeat for 1:20 and annotate that detail.

The notes and dims that you create adopt the current Annotation Scale set in modelspace.  If you realise you have the wrong scale set just select the relevant items and go to the Properties Bar.  Select Annotative Scale and ADD, select the scale you wanted and remove the old one.  This is the same if you want to change the scale of your viewport and have to resize all your text as I did this morning.  Engineer wanted his plan at 1:100 today instead of 1:250.  I just resized the viewport and CHSPACE and rectangle into model space.  Set the new scale on the viewport in the Properties Bar and then reset the scale in modelspace to 1:100.  Globally selected all the text and dims and changed their scale to 1:100.  Then relocated the text to suit the new sheet size.

Then move to Paperspace and select my 1:50 viewports and in the Properties Bar set both the Annotation Scale and Standard Scale to 1:50.

Repeat for 1:20 viewport.

All text and dimensions are 3.5mm or 5.0mm in paperspace.

Just to clarify there is only one dim style, not one style for every scale.  It's really nice to work with and the junior guys have found it much easier to work with than their previous method or putting notes in paperspace.

Hope that's some help.

Liam

Joe Dunfee

@Liam Callaghan:

All three details are drawn 1:1 to their actual sizes in model space.  I often draw a little box around them (in Defpoints) with a note under it for the related scale I am going to work in just in case one of the junior guys use it later.  A simple enough prompt or note for them to see.

Liam

I do the same thing.  Linear scale factors are certainly bad news because it is not apparent when a dimension is showing the wrong value.  That is the sort of thing that can create a very expensive problem later.

I don't use annotation scale, since I am often in situations where I need to know exactly how a dimension will show up, because we are trying to fit a lot of information onto a small sheet. So, ambiguity is not acceptable.  I also like multiple scales of dimension styles because there are times I accept smaller dimension text, just because I need to fit some dimensions in where there is not a lot of room for them.

As a side note, I finally settled on how I would name my dimension styles.  I used to use Large Medium and Small, but then I didn't always know what scale they were actually at.  So, I now name them like this, 24-Arch-Meter is at a display scale of 24, and shows both architectural and metric.  When I bring in blocks or segments from other drawings, it really helps to know what the scale factor is by looking at the name of the style.

Eric Ratliff

I have been trying to use model space dimensions.  One problem I don't know how to prevent is the dimension's side view appearing in a 2nd viewport.
"model dim attempt.png"  I have each layout's annotation on a layer so I can freeze it in other layouts.  This is just to support model space dimensions.

Also, they show up in the Model tab, and there is no way to freeze the dimension's layer in the 'viewport' of the Model tab.  There is a projection to my 2D screen, so I assume there is a hidden or implied viewport for the model tab.  I suppose I could make a new layout with a viewport to substitute for the Model tab.

So, anybody have suggestions on how to hide these model space dimensions in viewports where I do not want to see them?

model dim attempt.png

Joe Dunfee

 My approach is to put each model space dimension set on its own layer.  Then, to hide them all, I have a macro that will freeze all layers with the words "Dim" in it.  And since I put all dimensions on those layers, they go away.  Note that what ever the current layer is, will not freeze, so if you change to that layer, you can just keep those dimensions visible.

I also use this feature for 2D drawings, and have things like hatches on a layer with the word dim in it as well, to those go away. 

Here is the macro I have assigned to a button.

^c^c-la freeze *dim*,*hatch*;;

Also, I have attached the image I use for the button.

-Joe

NoDim.BMP

Eric Ratliff

@Joe Dunfee:

 My approach is to put each model space dimension set on its own layer.  Then, to hide them all, I have a macro that will freeze all layers with the words "Dim" in it.  And since I put all dimensions on those layers, they go away.  Note that what ever the current layer is, will not freeze, so if you change to that layer, you can just keep those dimensions visible.

Thanks Joe,

I tried that macro and that button.  My dimension layers are now named like this
RefillDeck_dim
where "RefillDeck" is the name of the layout where the dimensions are used.  This might allow a macro that unfreezes each dimension layer in its matching layout.

But, the problem of multiple views in one layout remains.  I don't want to see side views of dimensions.  What I need is a way to freeze or hide a layer by viewport.  I can't think of anything that controls visibility by viewport.  If that is so, I think that model space dimensions will only work with single viewport layouts.

Perhaps hide a layer by region in paper space?  Some selective transparency material?  I don't know of any way to do that either.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

@ Eric:
You can VpFreeze layers per paper space viewport. So if you put the dimensions for each orthogonal projection on a separate layer, and create a separate PS viewport for each projection, there should be no problem there.

Eric Ratliff

@Roy Klein Gebbinck:

@ Eric:
You can VpFreeze layers per paper space viewport. ...

Thanks Roy,

I should have noticed that the column in the layers dialog is named VP Freeze, not Layout Freeze.  This explains some confusing results I had.  All set now!

here was the command
: LAYFRZ
Current setting: Viewports=Vpfreeze, Block nesting level=Block
Select an entity on the layer to be frozen or [Settings]: s
Enter setting type for [Viewports/Block selection]: v
In paper space viewport use [Vpfreeze/Freeze] : v
Select an entity on the layer to be frozen or [Settings]:
:

Here are the results:
"vpfreeze left view.png"
"vpfreeze bottom view.png"

vpfreeze left view.png

vpfreeze bottom view.png

Eric Ratliff

@Eric Ratliff:

All set now!

Not.  Another problem was seeing dimension text in visual style Hidden.  It was invisible.  One work around is to reate a Text Style with a .shx type font.  I like these:
isocp.shx
romans.shx
simplex.shx

Drawing Explorer/Open Drawings/Text Styles/new

Here is an example of the invisible, and worked around dimensions.
"invisible text example.png"
"invisible dimension text.dwg"

invisible text example.png

invisible dimension text.dwg

andy morris

 Sounds to me like it would be much easier to dimension in Paper Space...