Font recommendation like Romans, but with serifs on upper-case I.

Joe Dunfee

 The capital I, lower-case L, and the number 1 have been problems ever since Autodesk decided to omit the serifs to distinguish between them in some of their plotter fonts like Romans.  

First, some history for the younger folks here. The plotter fonts were initially the only way fonts were defined in AutoCAD. They were defined in .shp and .shx files.  If you omitted to send the .shx file with your drawing, your drawing would not be able to display that font when the customer tried to view it.    When a Windows version of AutoCAD came around, it eventually permitted the use of native Windows fonts, called "True Type Fonts" (TTF). 

I had been faithful to avoid using TTF fonts, because I wanted to avoid the customer having problems with my drawings if they didn't have the font. But, I don't actually know if that is a rule that needs to be followed.  Are TTF or SHX based fonts saved with a drawing in current DWG versions?

Also, years ago, the general rule was to avoid the True-type fonts in AutoCAD, because they tended to slow the computer down significantly, and were prone to crashing AutoCAD.  It has been a very long time since I leaned that rule, and hopefully things have changed, but I thought it wise to ask.

Are true-type fonts wise to use extensively in BricsCAD, or in any DWG editing program?  If they are OK, what font do you recommend as a substitute for the Romans plotter font, and which has the serifs on the capital I.

-Joe

Anthony Apostolaros

I remember when TTF fonts were slower, but I don't think that's true any more.
We still use Archstyl.shx for most text because there's no TTF version of it.
But we also use Times New Roman, which has serifs; I think it's pretty safe to assume that every Windows computer has that.

martin@enco.us

TrueType font handling is much better now, but I still avoid TTF when I can.  They don't display on the screen accurately in all cases.  What I see on drawings I receive is that at certain zoom levels some text will look bold while other text using exactly the same style and size will not look bold.  TTF are also harder to select since you have to click on the border of a character, not anywhere on a character. 

ENGINEER.SHX has serifs on capital I and is close to ROMANS. 

I use a font based on ROMANSX5.SHP, which is a modification of ROMANS done by Thomas Irvin which uses arcs instead of line segments to do the curves in the characters.  I modified the font to add serifs.  I use SHX2SHP.exe to decompile SHX fonts to SHP.  Torsten has a font compiler in his BcadTools.  Editing the fonts is tedious but is not hard. 

Joe Dunfee

 I do still want to ask if whoever views a DWG with true-type fonts must have those fonts installed already.  If not, is a "pack and go" type of operation available   I know PDF creators often offer the option of embedding the font.  Is something like that available for DWG files?

-Joe

Robt Deans

@Joe Dunfee:... is a "pack and go" type of operation available....

-Joe

Check out the ETRANSMIT command (under FILE)

John Gaunt

Since one large client here demands ISOCP2.shx, I use it for all work so that standard notes etc fit with other work and everyone's system can read it.

It differentiates between 1 and I, L and l, and it is about the same width as many other fonts compressed to about 0.8 width.

O is fatter than 0, but it's still sometimes hard to spot.

If you had to draw something like vehicle ID plates you might be glad of lack of differentiation, it's a shame we didn't just stick with the original arabic depictions. 

I often receive cad files bundled with font files, plot configs etc. and ignore all but the dwg file - I have better things to do. I assume others will regard my files the same way.

martin@enco.us

@Joe Dunfee:

 I do still want to ask if whoever views a DWG with true-type fonts must have those fonts installed already.  If not, is a "pack and go" type of operation available   I know PDF creators often offer the option of embedding the font.  Is something like that available for DWG files?

-Joe

Based on the title blocks I get from architects that use obscure fonts TTF is not imbedded, and I don't know a way to do so.  ETRANSMIT is an option, but most of us ignore any fonts in an etransmit unless someone complains.  I tend not to install fonts in Windows if they are not something I use regularly.

Richard Sands

I was a ttf cocnvert once they became available, but if I know I'm sending a dwg to an engineer stick to Arial as that seems to be a globally universal font available to all.
I have seen some weird results with substitutions.

I have a problem with Last Uniform which doesn't behave in IntelliCad survey program I have.
Bricscad doesn't falter though.
I have modified some fonts to give better results.
Degree sign ° is oddly placed in some fonts. Last Uniform places it far too high.

Previous versions of my Cad really worked better for screen display with cad fonts.  TTF's were horrible when zoomed out.
These days that's not such an issue on my screens.

Joe Dunfee

 So, it seems TTF's are not embedded. And e-transmit does not really solve the problem in a good way, in my opinion. 

What happens if someone opens a DWG file with Times New Roman fonts, but are using a Linux machine?  Do they have the Times New Roman font with the same proportions as the Windows version?

Perhaps the most reliable way, at least in some ways, is to stick with the TXT plotter font.  Somewhere I mentioned someone coming up with a smooth curve version of that font, which can be substituted for the build-in SHX file.  Then, at least internally, your DWG files look good, and they will look good in PDFs.  Your customer will not get the same good font looks, but at least the 1's and I's will be different, and the text will be sized appropriately. Another variation of the theme is to put serifs on the problem fonts, like Romans. I saw references to some versions of that as a SHX file in the Autodesk forums.

-Joe

Joe Dunfee

 I have been trying to find an existing substitute for the Romans font (a .shx or .shp file), that includes the serifs on the I's.  But, I have not been successful.  Any recommendations about where to to find one?

-Joe

Robt Deans

@Joe Dunfee:

...substitute for the Romans font (a .shx or .shp file), that includes the serifs on the I's....

ROMAN_SL.SHX, MROMANS.SHX

Joe Dunfee

 I don't see the ROMAN_SL.SHX, MROMANS.SHX in my fonts list.  Do they come with AutoCAD and BricsCAD?

-Joe

Robt Deans

Bunch-o fonts here: http://www.tannarzane.com/files/749_Fonts.zip

Joe Dunfee

 Thank you Mr Deans for those fonts.  I tried the Roman_sl.shx file, and it does have the serifs on the I, so it works well from that perspective.  I even renamed it to romans.shx, and put it into the BricsCAD fonts directory (after renaming the original.  So, at least for my own personal use, my I's look like I's.

However, I did notice that the Roman_sl.shx file is only 5k, vs 21k for the original Romans.shx file.  So obviously something is missing.

So, I figured I had better start to dig into the original font definition to see if I could some how modify the original Romans.shx file keeping most of it, and just modifying the problem letters. I was hoping to only spending a few hours on the process). But, of course, these things never work out that way.

I know I need the original SHP file.  I did find the program shx2shp.exe, but it is not working from the command prompt on my Windows 7 machine.  The message says it is not compatible with 64bit windows.

But, since the program must run from the command prompt, with the file being converted following the name of the .exe.  That is, I need to type the following in the command prompt.

[code]shx2shp Roman_sl.shx[/code]

But, that does not work, and generates the following error.

[code]This version of C:\Users\JD\Desktop\Fonts\SHX2SHP.EXE is not compatible with the

 version of Windows you're running. ...[/code]

 I tried the way I found on the net to initiate a 32bit command prompt,

[code]%windir%\SysWoW64\cmd.exe.[/code]

 but it generates the same error. And, I am afraid I am out of my league dealing with stuff like this.

Any more idea?

martin@enco.us

Search for DUMPSHX.EXE.  It is one of the Express Tools and there are copies that are easy to find that can be downloaded, including in the Autodesk forums.  If you have or have had Autocad you may already have a copy.

Anthony Apostolaros

Joe, if you're concerned about others not being able to use the fonts in your DWG file, that's actually an argument for using TrueType fonts. There are plenty of CAD programs that don't use SHX fonts. They can import DWG files, but they have to convert all the text to Truetype or to their own proprietary fonts.

Joe Dunfee

 After thinking more about it, I think the True-type fonts are the way to go.  I did more searching, and found a list of recommended fonts that are pretty universal, and have been in windows since XP.  I put a * next to the ones that have the Serifs.

Arial

Arial Black

* Comic Sans MS

* Courier New

Impact

* Lucida Console

Lucida Sans Unicode

* Palatino Linotype

* Times New Roman

* Verdana

Symbol

Webdings

Wingdings

The list is short.  And it is even shorter when you consider that Palatino Linotype and Times New Roman look identical in my test. And Lucida Console and Courier are aesthetically not good choices for any drawing unless you want to look like the drawing was created several decades ago.  This narrows the list down to the following 3 fonts;

Comic Sans MS (which looks hand drawn)

Times New Roman

Verdana (perhaps the closest of these three to Romans.  It is like Ariel with a few serifs)

Verdana seems to omit most serifs, but does make an excellent choice to distinguish the problem letters with serifs. It even does the lower-case "a" as it shows up on this forum, rather than the version that looks very much like a lower case O or a zero, because the vertical line so minimal.

-Joe

Anthony Apostolaros

Verdana! It's like Arial but distinguishes between I, l, and 1.
I never noticed that before. Good find, Joe.
Good for all sorts of reference marks and other numbering.

Patrik Sparrman

If the plotter is given the TTF as text rather than raster you may hade an size issue as the plotter may or may not size the way Bricscad does. Have seen this issue in other programs as well.