Layer freeze vs lock
What is the difference between freezing layer and locking layer?
Comments
-
I find this very confusing too.
And it looks for me like a legacy from times when machines were weak.Locking is what seen elsewhere as "grayed",
you can see objects but can't select or edit them.
(So I do not understand why they get highlighted in Bricscad)Invisible is invisible BUT selectable (!?) and kept in Memory.
Freezing makes Objects invisible, unselectable AND thrown out of Memory.
(So it take longer to freeze/unfreeze Layers vs visibility changes)
So this is what you normally see as a visibility setting.0 -
Dear Michael,
it is normal that entities on locked layers can be selected - it depends on the later edit operations, whether those entities are used.
Example : you can not modify a LINE on a locked layer ... but you can still use that LIEN as border entity for a trim operation
(meaning, the entity can still be used for read-only operations, only "writing" operations are blocked).hope this explains a bit ?
many greetings !0 -
Dear Torsten
hmmm,
yes I see, locked layer objects gets even selected
(The just don't show the green manipulation handles)@Torsten Moses said:
Dear Michael,it is normal that entities on locked layers can be selected
Not really for me, outside of the Autocad Universe ...
Maybe I don't understand the benefits so far.
Honestly I have never seen, needed or missed that anywhere before.
I am fine with the trim operation, of course.I think "Selection" is an "Activation" of an Entity that implies that you want
to do any deeper interaction with such a Entity, like manipulation or translation.
While Highlighting is a soft form of indication, like saying you snapped to the
correct Entity.
In a crowded drawing it helps a lot if you have some filtering or exclusion
to focus on Entities of current interest and prevent for accidentally destroying
things that you need only as a reference.What's the meaning of selecting and manipulating Entities that you can't see ?
(Visibility off)
If I had all these Entities in my mind I wouldn't even need to look at the Monitor
at all. I think that is just a nice optional behavior in very very rare cases.
Like selecting by Structure Browser.But how can I ged rid of any irritating highlighting or selection
of things like XREF plan underlays.0 -
Dear Michael,
Not really for me, outside of the Autocad Universe ...
Maybe I don't understand the benefits so far.
Honestly I have never seen, needed or missed that anywhere before.
I am fine with the trim operation, of course.the question is "what does 'disabled' mean ?"
a) totally unusable (then you could better freeze a particular layer)
b) or just "prevent modification" to such entities ...and b) is what "locked layer" means - it prevents that such entities can be modified - but there are tons of scenarios, where such entities must remain selectable - besides TRIM/EXTEND, think of queries like AREA, LIST, etc. also once selected
"grayed" from "layer-is-locked" status does not at all mean that is can not be selected ...
you can check Settings, there are system variabled to influence fading of locked layers, and selection preview / highlighting.at all. I think that is just a nice optional behavior in very very rare cases.
besides of many useful scenarios (not only very rare cases), it is as AutoCAD operates since decades ... we can not brake this, as users rely on exactly such behaviour (interactively & via programming APIs)
I think "Selection" is an "Activation" of an Entity that implies that you want
to do any deeper interaction with such a Entity, like manipulation or translation.You imply here, that selection is intended for later "manipulation" ... but selection can also be used for later "query" ... and at upfront selection, it is not known what you intend afterwards.
Alternatively, you can start command first ...What's the meaning of selecting and manipulating Entities that you can't see ? (Visibility off)
Not sure what you mean here ?
many greetings !
0 -
@Torsten Moses said:
Dear Michael,the question is "what does 'disabled' mean ?"
a) totally unusable (then you could better freeze a particular layer)
b) or just "prevent modification" to such entities ...and b) is what "locked layer" means - it prevents that such entities can be modified - but there are tons of scenarios, where such entities must remain selectable - besides TRIM/EXTEND, think of queries like AREA, LIST, etc. also once selected
"grayed" from "layer-is-locked" status does not at all mean that is can not be selected ...
you can check Settings, there are system variabled to influence fading of locked layers, and selection preview / highlighting."Grayed" is a Layer State called in other Apps outside of Autocad Universe.
It is like ACAD "locked" but of course selection is locked.
You can see things as a reference, can snap to it or use the in cases like
the trim boundary.
I see it as an ACAD limit that "locked" elements need to be actively selected
to provide these actions because ACAD Tools work that way.
Other Apps do that in the background and hide it from the user.There is a standard of needing only 3 Layer states,
Invisible = simply not there
Visible = visible, selectable and editable
Grayed = as seen abovebesides of many useful scenarios (not only very rare cases),
>
Which I may currently not see or understand as a Bricscad/ACAD newbie ...
but am willing to learn.it is as AutoCAD operates since decades ... we can not brake this, as users rely on exactly such behaviour (interactively & via programming APIs)
I understand that there are many reasons why Bricscad is like ACAD and
that this can't be changed.
I am just thinking that it's a pity as I have seen other solutions and think that
things are that way in Bricscad for compatibility reasons + ecosystem and
not because they are so clever.
For example I personally would be much more pleased if Bricscad (theoretically)
had decided we do a better Microstation instead of an ACAD.
Because every own addition that Bricscad adds over ACAD functionality like
BIM or direct modeling is great and free from any ACAD legacy.
So I am sure, if there would not be any ACAD ecosystem dependencies, all
tools, including that Layer System, would look quite different.You imply here, that selection is intended for later "manipulation" ... but selection can also be used for later "query" ... and at upfront selection, it is not known what you intend afterwards.
I am not sure if I mean the same "query" but that happens elsewhere to what is
in the file and not what is currently in your working screen and has its own
sorting options.>
you can check Settings, there are system variabled to influence fading of locked >layers, and selection preview / highlighting.
>
I tried all related settings that I could find but so far found no way to see my
XREF underly but prevent it from selection.
Of course I need a selection preview highlighting to predict if I will choose and
activate the exact one Entity I want to activate. And of course I need my Selection highlighted to be able to see and control which Objects will be manipulated.But how should I be able to do all this if the highlight of the XREF, which I don't
want to edit, outshines all important objects I want to focus on.0 -
Sounds like you're looking for the PREVIEWFILTER setting
0 -
You have good ears Hans
I found and tried it.
But is not exactly what I need - as it is working for the selection "preview" only.
(It was already activated for "elements on locked Layers")
And the same happens for XREFs, I activated this and it looked promising
when I started selection marquee but at the end it selects anyway.Indeed, if this setting would work ALSO (or separately) on Selections itself,
I would be pretty happy with it.0 -
@Michael Mayer said:
I find this very confusing too.
And it looks for me like a legacy from times when machines were weak.Locking is what seen elsewhere as "grayed",
you can see objects but can't select or edit them.
(So I do not understand why they get highlighted in Bricscad)Invisible is invisible BUT selectable (!?) and kept in Memory.
Freezing makes Objects invisible, unselectable AND thrown out of Memory.
(So it take longer to freeze/unfreeze Layers vs visibility changes)
So this is what you normally see as a visibility setting.I don't have any CAD background, and I am more confuse now, On/Off also makes objects visible/invisible, same as Freeze. So what exactly Freeze is?
0 -
On/Off just hides objects that they don't hide your view.
(If I got that right). They can still be selected.
Freezing is the most similar state that resembles a standard In/Visible setting
in the rest of the world, concerning object and selection behavior.
But it also throws the objects out of graphic memory. So it will need more
time to reload, opposed to On/Off.And if I notice that correct, it will even accelerate a file "save", when many
Layers are frozen (!?)0 -
@fredericklim said:
I don't have any CAD background, and I am more confuse now, On/Off also makes objects visible/invisible, same as Freeze.
So what exactly Freeze is?I think it may help to explain the why the two methods were created in more depth. When you were using a 80286 machine and had 1 megabyte of memory, it was very easy to overwhelm your machine with a drawing. When I opened a drawing, it was not unusual to see each object appear over a span of 10 seconds or more. There was no such thing as real-time panning or zooming.
If you were adding detail to a drawing of a multi-floor building, that had a lot of dimensions already in place, it was helpful to have a way to tell the computer to ignore those dimensions, as well as the floors you weren't working on. Freezing those layers would permit the computer to pretend they didn't even exist and they were not even loaded into memory. But, if you thawed those layers, you again had to wait for a REGEN for all of those objects to be re-loaded into memory. Note that the objects loaded into memory were also placed on a "display list" that was referenced to tell the video card what to show on the screen.
Turning on/off was a way to make the objects invisible. And when you turned a layer on, it only required a REDRAW for it to be displayed again. This meant it simply read them from the "display list" and sent that info to the video card. This REDRAW was a much faster operation than a full REGEN that thawing a frozen layer required.
There are a number of little details to how the freeze/thaw vs. on/off process works. For example, blocks are often created with all the objects on layer 0, which means that any layer where the block reference is inserted will have its properties propagated to all the objects in the block. But, it is also possible to create a block that has objects on multiple layers.
And though even a very complex 2D drawing is now not a problem for any modern computer, there are still some advantages to the freeze/thaw on/off routine.
For example a door block may have the door jamb, and door itself on a layer called "Doors". The dimension of the opening on a layer called "Door Dims", and a label giving the model number of the door on 3rd layer called "Door Labels". Then, if you insert that block on a layer called "1st floor", and then freeze that layer, no part of the door will show, even if the "Doors", "Door Dims" and "Door Labels" layers are on and thawed. However, if you only turn "1st floor" off, then the doors and all the objects in it on the various layers will show (provided that those layers are on and thawed).
The benefit of the above behavior, is that it permits you to have multiple floors that use the multi-layer block called "Door", and keep your floors drawn on top of each other.
-Joe
0 -
@Joe Dunfee said:
When you were using a 80286 machine and had 1 megabyte of memory, it was very easy to overwhelm your machine with a drawing. When I opened a drawing, it was not unusual to see each object appear over a span of 10 seconds or more. There was no such thing as real-time panning or zooming.
As I said, all legacy issues
that make our life more complicated than it would need to be.
There is enough CPU power, RAM and SSD Space for files and
enough GPU power and RAM to display the data.So you could easily combine Freeze+On/OF and add a standard
object + selection behavior .... If there wouldn't be the ecosystem
dependencies and disturbance for users that are just used to do
it that way.There are a number of little details to how the freeze/thaw vs. on/off process works. For example, blocks are often created with all the objects on layer 0, which means that any layer where the block reference is inserted will have its properties propagated to all the objects in the block. But, it is also possible to create a block that has objects on multiple layers.
And though even a very complex 2D drawing is now not a problem for any modern computer, there are still some advantages to the freeze/thaw on/off routine.
For example a door block may have the door jamb, and door itself on a layer called "Doors". The dimension of the opening on a layer called "Door Dims", and a label giving the model number of the door on 3rd layer called "Door Labels". Then, if you insert that block on a layer called "1st floor", and then freeze that layer, no part of the door will show, even if the "Doors", "Door Dims" and "Door Labels" layers are on and thawed. However, if you only turn "1st floor" off, then the doors and all the objects in it on the various layers will show (provided that those layers are on and thawed).
The benefit of the above behavior, is that it permits you to have multiple floors that use the multi-layer block called "Door", and keep your floors drawn on top of each other.
-Joe
That is what I do daily in Vectorworks.
But I don't think that is related to the existance of Freeze+On/Off.
In VW is, like many other Apps also have, more or less hidden,
an additional "Layer Dimension" beside Layers.
(Levels+Classes, Teilbilder+Layer, .... )
So if you use the second Dimension to sort objects by Stories,
you can separate your view by Stories and/or additional Buildings.And the system as you described for Blocks,
I also set "Master" Layers for Blocks + Sub-Layers (by Material or Part sorting)
Where I can control Block types vs their Components.
More interesting it gets when you use your BIM Plugin Objects, that behave
kind like Blocks, where a Wall is on Master Layer "WALLS" while their
Components reside on Material or Part Sub-Layers.
So you can quickly switch between seeing only Walls but no Doors and Windows,
Or all Concrete building Parts only.Because of the ACAD dependencies, I think there will not be any change in the
current Layer System ever.
While the second Dimension starts to arise by the addition of Structure Manager.
Currently it is able to select, so you can workaround by isolating objects.
In the future it may be less tedious if Structure Manager can also control
visibilities.0 -
@Michael Mayer said:
In the future it may be less tedious if Structure Manager can also control
visibilities.There is an option with the Structure Manager to select objects in the model that you've selected in the structure tree. Having selected, you can run _HIDEOBJECTS/_UNISOLATEOBJECTS to toggle their visibility.
Agree it would be useful to built this into the menu of the Structure Manager, as demonstrated by the Mechanical Browser.
Regards,
Jason Bourhill
CAD Concepts0 -
Yes, for now Structural Manager is able to select.
I use this + "Isolate" all the time. I wouldn't know how to navigate else.What I really dislike in Layer Navigation is the Warning that you can't
freeze the active Layer when trying to freeze all others in on go.
I know that well by myself.
Why not just ignore the active Layer from freezing and let it as it is ?
(For Selections on a Layer that gets frozen you can hide that by a checkbox)For the On/Off where I don't understand the meaning,
I tend to pull that column to the right out of my focus.
Unfortunately saved per File only (?) and the columns go back to default state
for new files.And I think it would work much faster if there would not be the need to
first select multiple Layers before you can do changes in Layer list.
I would prefer a multiple switch in one go :- click Freeze to freeze first Layer
- hold Shift, click on Freeze on last Layer to select and switch all.
Also a drag switch option would be nice.
Switch first Layer and drag cursor to switch following Layers.0
