BimAttachComposition

G.H. Mulder

Hey,
Bricscad V18

1e Why doesn't work BimAttachComposition not for arc walls.
2e Why does the wall moved when i apply a BimAttachCompostion. (walls where created with polysolids)

Anyone have a solution?

see attachment

Michael Mayer

1)
I would file a bug

2)
The Walls "move" when applying a BIM Composition that has
a different thickness as the previous geometry.
And I think that Walls will scale that way always from their Center LIne
they were drawn from (left/right/middle)
and the direction they were drawn may give BIM Compositions the
direction to decide which side is outside and which inside.
(?)

G.H. Mulder

Michael,

2)
The walls were draw as one polyline and left justification.
draw them clockwise or counterclockwise din't make any difference.
Justification BimAttachComposition isn't the same as Original polysolid.

Michael Mayer

So these features (justification and direction) are missing completely ?

Michael Mayer

OK, I found the Composition Flip Button meanwhile.
But don't see a chance controlling the Walls extending when changing Compositions.
(Base Line, Core Definition, ....)
All I see is repositioning of Walls and repairing joins.

I think 1) + 2) are worth bug discussion.
Or better feature requests.
Maybe the recommended behavior for rounded Walls is to draw each component separately.

G.H. Mulder

I report them as a Bug.

Michael Mayer

Thanks !
Would really like to know the result then.

Steven_g

2e
definately to do with object creation direction, the problem is going from a polysolid to a composition with a different thickness, the bimflip command won't work on a polysolid. But once a composition is applied changing compositions works changing the thickness from the start face (outer skin) of the composite. So as a workflow either create the polysolids with the correct thickness first (I didn't either) or create a temporary composition with the same thickness as your polysolids and attach that first, make sure you can see the ply's of the composition and use bimflip to make sure the outside is out, then you can change the composition and the walls should behave.

It would be nice if a polysolid could have some indication of which is going to be the start face for adding a composition.

Michael Mayer

But there is something strange anyway.

If you continously draw a few connected Walls in one go by Polysolid
(Everything ORTHO, 90°, just like a non-closed Polyline),
select all and assign a non-symetric multi ply Composition,
you will see that even in this simply case the the direction
of the composition does not match.
You have to manually flip some of these.

Steven_g

It's sometimes a difficult subject to follow but in other drawing packages there is something called normals (these relate to the z axiswhich if you in Autocad for example and draw a rectangle and explode it then run the UCS command with the option to select an object and do this for two opposite sides of the rectangle you will see the UCS jump to diagonal opposing ends. Do the same thing in Bricscad and the UCS behaves differently. And I think what happens in Bricscad is that as you apply compositions it uses this "normal" property to decide how it is applied to objects.

Michael Mayer

Yes.

I think that it currently is just not working as designed.
I didn't notice this pre-V18. (which is no guarantee)
Neither the direction of just assigning Compositions nor
what happens with Width Changes.

But I'm asking myself if we can always work without
controllable Wall Directions and options to control from which point in a
Composition a potential Width Change will extend and
Wall Auto Joining,
in the log run.

Beside the Composition Direction thing itself,
it can also easily destroy your Structural Axis Position and Wall Joins.
And currently the restriction of the Connect Tool to work on a single
Wall Pair only makes it kind of impractical for me.
And I had a bit expected that the BIM SUGGEST would do Coonect
all similar Wall Situations for me in one go.

Jacob

Hi,

1) Attaching compositions to arc walls is currently not possible, however it is in the works.
2) It is in discussion how to solve this problem. I think the current idea is to add a reference line that can be assigned when creating a composition, so the wall will move with respect to that reference line. That way you have full control.

@Michael Mayer said:
But there is something strange anyway.

If you continously draw a few connected Walls in one go by Polysolid
(Everything ORTHO, 90°, just like a non-closed Polyline),
select all and assign a non-symetric multi ply Composition,
you will see that even in this simply case the the direction
of the composition does not match.
You have to manually flip some of these.

The way this works right now: the 'center of gravity' of the drawing is calculated, and that is used to assess what the inner and outer face of a wall is. This is a kind of rough method, and we know this is an issue. There have been discussions about how to solve this, but I'm not sure if there has been any development yet.

Steven_g

@Jacobdesutter said:
Hi,
The way this works right now: the 'center of gravity' of the drawing is calculated, and that is used to assess what the inner and outer face of a wall is. >

Just using a simple rectangular polysolid, it looks as though this isn't the case. From what I have seen viewing objects from above then all "vertical" (drawn in the Y axis) walls are treated the same, so the outer surface of an applied composition is always taken as the left hand face. If the center of gravity was used I would expect all the outer surfaces to be either the inside or the outside the bounding box, but at the moment it is half are in and half are out. If you draw two boxes using polysolid and have one to the left of the UCS origin and the other to the right then the composite is applied to the opposite directions, so it looks as though the UCS origin is the deciding factor.

I'm trying things as I write this.

Take a look at the two attached drawings 2x2.dwg uses 5 boxes all centered around the UCS point 0,0 and although different in each case the opposite walls are created with the composite main face in the same orientation, but as you move around the origin this changes. So I tried a slightly different approach AllOutside.dwg and centered a box so that the left and bottom faces of each side are centered on the USC and it works as I think most people would hope it should. How that could be implemented into a working drawing is possibly something that could be looked at.

Michael Mayer

I assume, however it was designed, Wall Compositions currently do not
really work as designed.
I really do appreciate the simple BIM from Solids idea.
But ask my self if it currently has enough control to effectively work with
Walls. As a comparison, my previous complex and restrictive BIM system
for Walls has and needs several controls :

1.
Walls have a direction.
Left is outside so Windows will know where to look at.
2.
You can reverse the direction of a Wall if needed.
3.
One of the Plies can be defined as a Core.
4.
The Center when drawing can be left/middle/right, but optionally either
from overall Wall - or - from Wall's Core Ply
5.
When you change a Composition itself or reassign a different Composition
to a Wall, you have to decide from which Center, previous vs new Wall
Composition, the Wall will increase or shrink.
So if you need, it could be from Core Right old to Overall Wall left new.
6.
Wall Joins will stay intact in case of changes.
7.
Choosing or activating a Wall Composition will tell the App a) that you
want to draw a Solid b) which needs to be a Wall and c) needs to have
that Composition applied and d) drawn with its thickness,
in one go.

This way you can adapt Compositions very easy and reliable to
design changes.
In Bricscad currently, it works when you draw your Walls with suitable
thicknesses and apply a multi Ply Compostion (with manual flipping),
as long as it is a static design.
When changes in Plies are needed, I think it will work somehow at a
simple V16 Solid LOD and may just need some Wall repositioning.
But when I had some T-connetions with interior Walls and done some
multi Ply LOD operations, uncontrollable Wall extending will change
these connection in an unwanted way and you will no more be able to
"repair" these with the help of BIMSUGGEST.

So I think there may be some more control needed in the future.
If that needs to be hard coded in Tools or there will be a Bricscad AI
solution that does it on the fly will be very interesting.
(Like recognizing a structural Ply sitting on a building grid axis always
expand from there and such things)

Roy Klein Gebbinck

I do not know what Bricsys is planning in this regard, but my suggestion would be to attach a specific meaning to the face the composition is 'dropped onto'.

Normal 'drop':
Face is the exterior face and fixed. Other face is moved if required,

Control 'drop':
Dialog with options (face to fix; offset; change similar connected solids or not).

Michael Mayer

Will be restricted to Compositions extend to one side only but could be a way.
But I think more thickness changes will occur on the outer side,
so would vote for inner side fixed.
I think in most cases it will be a structural engineer will say something like
you need a 40 cm concrete core instead of your 25 cm and the energy engineer
will say your insulation will need to be 20 cm instead of 12 cm, at the same time.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

When applying compositions maybe there should be 3 standard options and 1 dialog option to be selected via Ctrl clicks (with a Tips Widget). And, to avoid too many clicks, a fifth and default option governed by a variable (that can be changed via the dialog option).

When updating solids with multi-ply compositions (which define the outer faces of the construction) a solution based on some of the rules you have suggested may also make sense. Although in that case, instead of (many?, complex?) rules, asking the user to simply specify the new composition and an offset would be enough.

Michael Mayer

Yes something like this.
But I would need the dimensions of both compositions in an dimensioned
illustration in front of me, before I could answer the offset

Currently I am playing with Polysolid.
And realized when drawing Walls over an XRef, when have drawn the direction
of a few Walls (by right Center), right clicked and wanted to set Height and
Wall Depth, Bricscad also expanded the Polysolid from the Center Line.
So I had to redraw.

In these Situations I really prefer the simple Cube Tool and finally connect
each Join manually.

Steven_g

Some more visible way of seeing the "fixed" face would be nice (I'm looking for how to have different materials on opposite sides of a wall just for visual appearance but it would show everything else up nicely). For the polysolids/compositions a BIMflip grip would be nice, if it was to be an arrow grip that showed when a polysolid was selected similar to a section flip then it would also give a visual hint in the drawing, plus it would be handy if it was also listed in the properties (and changeable there).

Ok I've found how to apply different materials to different ply's in the compositions palette, but for the life of me I can't get them to be visible in a drawing, or more accurately in a second drawing. Playing with all sorts of buttons and levers in one drawing I have different materials showing in the model. But trying that in a second model and materials aren't showing up. What am I missing

Michael Mayer

You need to activate the Composition visibility per entity in property palette.
I also vote for a global override button to force switch all on/off.

I'm also asking myself if it wouldn't be nice to make visible in view window
which entity is already BIMified and/or Compositioned.

For the Wall Direction and Axis it could be a small Dot or Arrow at the start
of a Wall that shows beginning and axis position.
(Like Sections have to reverse direction ?)

And a global switch like for Rollover Tips, to activate or deactivate that
BIM Layer of Information to not disturb if not needed.
With the usaual checkboxes in settings of which infos to show.

Steven_g

Thank you sir, I was going dotty, wow, so easy when you know how, I only had 2 walls in the drawing, but I had both selected and had been toggling the display composition in the properties palette, doing it one at a time works fine, but I'm just bringing in an existing ifc model from revit with 1000's of objects I don't need to do it for that, but just imagine if you did.

Michael Mayer

I thought it would work for all selected.
That would be really tedious if not.

Pieter Clarysse

Hi all,
Thanks for the great feedback, we're following this with much interest.

It is clear that some control on how a wall will change thickness, is needed. We're on it. Meanwhile, a quick note about how the program decides this in the current release: the face which is farthest away from the geometric center of the entire dwg is considered the outside. The distance is measured as the distance from the center of the model to the plane of the face. This means that for the 2X2.dwg attached on this thread, the composition-attaching must have been done in steps, while solids were still being added. If you select all in that dwg, then Unclassify (which removes all BIM stuff from an entity), then select all again and drop the composition on the selection set, the inside and outside will be defined by the distance to the center of the dwg.

Just a tip, I find it more easy to inspect the layout of wall plies by activating a (horizontal) bimsection. (in a non-top view, start bimsection, click on an empty spot and move the cursor until it cuts through the walls)

@Michael Mayer said:
I'm also asking myself if it wouldn't be nice to make visible in view window
which entity is already BIMified and/or Compositioned.

Isn't this clearly shown in the Structure Panel ? And also, an active bimsection will show hatch patterns from composition on the 'Compositioned' elements, versus one single default hatch pattern on the non-Compositioned.

Finally, we're also working on automatic detection of external/internal walls. Then at least for external walls, the decision which is the inside and which is the outside, will improve drastically.

Pieter Clarysse

@Michael Mayer said:
I thought it would work for all selected.

Yes, any property can be changed for all selected. Try to use the Structure Panel to make selections: with the Bim configuration active, clicking on an item (whether it's one element, a group, or everything) selects the corresponding element(s) in the drawing.

Lorenzo

A good solution is what ArchiCad do: they have special objects for walls, slabs and roofs and in the "properties menu" you can always adjust height, thickness, angle, reference axis (for walls). This last one alwyas stays fix when you are changin the materiality of the wall. Is also quite visible so its clear where is it.
Basically when you want to draw a wall you just have to draw this line like you would darw a normal 2D Line. If you want to walls with to join you have to connect two ends of those axis-line.
Aside this you can alwys define the Z position of those 3d objects (top side, lower side) so you always have control over the exact location in the vertical space. I find this a big limit of BricsCad and other software, you always have to rely on the 3d model for those infos while it would be "safer" to be able to define them in the object itself.

But I guess the main problem is that, for instance, ArchiCad is made for Architects with all the tools optimized for what we need, while softwares like BricsCad (or AutoCad as well) are for all kind of uses and therefore they stays quite general without adressing every specific needs.
A solution to that would be to develop a separate version for Architects with specifics that fullfills our needs.

I hope I wanst too polemic or negative, I still think BricsCad is a big step forwards from AutoCad

Michael Mayer

Yes it is shown in Structure Panel.
And no it is not clearly shown
As the SP is mostly always expanded/collapsed in a way that you will not
see what you need without further interaction.
Also I think that the Structure Panels is kind of another abstraction layer
opposed to the 3D Model in view window directly under* your nose.
(* I use a horizontal Pen Display)

Sections are also a bit tedious while modeling, over, say an orange color for
everything not yet BIMIFIED. You may or not have Sections on for modelling.
And Sections do not differ between Solids and BIMs, they will just show
Compositioned or not. And even to clearly see you have to zoom in.

But these are all just views, thoughts and ideas about details in UI/UX.
Not official wishes.
(Be careful what you wish for)

And thanks a lot for your feedback Pieter.
It helps a lot to learn if developers explain how things were thought to work.

Michael Mayer

Yes, there are all BIM solutions that do it in a similar fashion, optimized for
architects. And they screw on their tools since decades. I also think Archicad
is one of the best for architectural use.
Similar for Vectorworks. although these tools are quite restrictive if the project
doesn't fit to the tools and there are so many things to clean up and many
things questionable.
But for now, I would be still MUCH! faster in VW.
And there is Bricscad BIM (also FormZ) that has a completely different approach
by using simple Solids. Which I find very pleasant and more future proof.
And its at its beginning.
So I do not wish Briscscad to go in this old school direction and just deliver the
usual convenience tools.

But I think it is important to mention others BIM workflows and potential to show
what architects want to achieve, how they work and think
So that Bricsys can see what would be needed, what is missing and think about
their Bricscad way to find solutions.
Which at the end may be completely different as we can currently imagine.

In this case it is about some control over wall thickness changes and orientation.
In a next step its influence Wall or other Joins.

But I do totally agree on your other point.
I also realize I highly miss the ability to all time check and edit entities
Positions, Rotations and Dimensions.
To check if everything is still accurate and repair if needed.
Especially with entity snaps overriding SHIFT or ORTHO lock, it is so easy to
draw a Wall slightly off or angled. If there is no visual control to detect
these errors in good time, you will spread this error over your whole model
in no time.
In VW I will easily see in property panel when a number looks ugly like
14,199999999999 m instead of 14,20 m that something went wrong.
Or snap to a vertex to read out local+world coordinates.
Or read the length+width of a rectangle and can even edit these by defining
its origin to change from at any time.
In Bricscad,
Snapping for coordinate readout does work when a suitable Tool is active only,
will be impossible if DUCS activated (until local+ world coordinates available).
QUAD gives areas for faces only when I am only interested in length+width.
Even Mass in Property Panel does not give all needed information.

Michael Mayer

BTW,
what's absolutely hyper mega cool :
Composition Plies with variable Thickness !

Saves tons of redundant Compositions.

Lorenzo

@Michael Mayer said:
BTW,
what's absolutely hyper mega cool :
Composition Plies with variable Thickness !

Saves tons of redundant Compositions.

Again, it would be nice to be able to set the composition thickness numerically (in the properties toolbar) instead of geometrically. I see the thickness is already visible in the Properties but is locked. Is a nice idea to have variable thickness but when the model is getting big it is super hard to control that and to find the walls with X-cm thickness and those with Y-cm. I think would also be nice to make visible the ply with variable thickness (maybe with a background hatch or with colored lines). At least would be clear on which wall I can make changes or which ones is fix.

Michael Mayer

100% agree.

Louis_Verdonck

If in a large model it is risky to use variable thickness compositions, use fixed thickness compositions only. When the unlocked layer in a composition is locked, BimUpdateThickness applies the same thickness to all solids with that composition attached.
To select the solids using a variable thickness composition and see which thickness they have, add the 'Thickness' property to the 'Structural Tree Configuaration File'. Place the BIM Thickness criterion just below the BIM Composition criterion. In the Structure panel you then see a list of all solids grouped by thickness (see image in attachment).