How to lure SketchUp users

John TeSelle

I am a long-time SketchUp user, and I can see from the promotional email for Shape that pulling those users in is a marketing goal. Good to have a competitor out there and I hope Shape develops into a useful tool.

If you want to entice SketchUp users, I have a suggestion -- make a "SketchUp navigation" mode or something so that pan, orbit, zoom, etc. all work identically to SketchUp (using the mouse buttons, not selecting icons). Those operations are second nature to anyone using SketchUp, and having them translate to Shape will make people more willing to try it. A way to have one-letter shortcut keys (hotkey, not shortcut plus space or enter) would also be attractive as that way shortcuts from SketchUp could be used the same way as single-letter hotkeys to map commonly used commands.

Also, it seems that Shape is slower in display processing than SketchUp. I played around a bit with the standard template that opened up with a new document (with one man standing there). Just drawing a cube in that document and then trying to orbit around it and push-pull it had a definite display lag. For a simple drawing that seemed odd. I then imported a larger file (a model made in SketchUp, exported as DWG) that was fairly complicated. Very slow to move around and change view modes and eventually it hung up and I had to kill the application to get out.

This is not to hate on the new application or anything -- I am saying good to have this new option, but moving around easily and quickly is the first order of business in 3d modeling. If it takes an extra second or two (or more) to change view or push-pull a face, then it will be hard to get people to switch from SketchUp, which does a good job of having a snappy user interface.

By the way, my system specs are:
Intel Core i7 950 @ 3.40GHz
12MB RAM
GeForce GTX 1050 video card
Windows 10

Viewsion

I'm a SketchUp trainer and heavy user. I'm interested in looking at this software.

I get the modelling part but the first thing I need to do is navigate. The ease of orbiting is one of the main reasons SU is so popular and beats the sh*t out of Autocad.

How is orbit not featured in your first tutorials?... If I can't configure my mouse to work the same/similar as SU then thanks but no thanks.

Michael Mayer

@John TeSelle said:
If you want to entice SketchUp users, I have a suggestion -- make a "SketchUp navigation" mode or something so that pan, orbit, zoom, etc. all work identically to SketchUp (using the mouse buttons, not selecting icons). Those operations are second nature to anyone using SketchUp, and having them translate to Shape will make people more willing to try it. A way to have one-letter shortcut keys (hotkey, not shortcut plus space or enter) would also be attractive as that way shortcuts from SketchUp could be used the same way as single-letter hotkeys to map commonly used commands.

This is not to hate on the new application or anything

Exacly. Proper View Navigation (and Visibility Navigation) is essential.

But I think that is valid for Bricscad too.
It is very nice that Bricscad at least has an option to "Live Zoom" LMB option
other than by Scroll Wheel only (which other Software sometimes miss),
for a Wacom Display user with Pen Input and missing adequate Scroll Options.
But I miss the "Zoom around Cursor" option in Live Zoom,
which allows Zooming in Panning at once.

And it would be nice if the the keys used had some similarity.

E.g. in Modo on Mac I get something like :
ALT = Rotate
ALT+SHIFT = Pan
ALT+CTRL = Zoom

While in Bricscad on Mac/Wacom it is something like :
CTRL = Pan (permanent without clicking)
CTRL+SHIFT = Rotate (permanent without clicking)
while
CMD+SHIFT = Zoom (non permanent, needs LMB clicking)

(* with the problem that exceeding the view borders while still
holding the keys, results in unpredictable behavior)

Roy Klein Gebbinck

@Viewsion:
The Shape product is based on 'Full' BricsCAD and view manipulation is similar. So this should clarify things.
And I do hope that as a trainer you are willing to learn new things yourself.

Michael Mayer

I am not so happy with some of the (maybe Autocad, don't know)
"non standard" behaviors in Bricscad, or more in Shape
over so many other Apps.
like Add Selection by default but Drag Selection off by default.

And in Bricscad I am constantly manually switching Selection Modes
and I could not imagine how I could ever work without even having
the option. But it looks that in Shape there were made some little
changes and improvements in the Selection Mode behaviors
and CTRL (CMD here) switches - which seem to work very well for me.

My biggest problem stays Bricscad's, and so Shape's sensitivity for
small unwanted cursor movements.
That is related to my shake hands and Pen Input preference of course,
and it is less severe with a Mouse, but still a problem with nowadays
super sensitive Laser Mice, even if I try to press it down on my pad.
It will still send coordinate changes to Brticscad.
And that makes TAB option operations nearly impossible.
It will always take 3-8 attempts for me to get an obscured Face.
Plus it will corrupt my DYNDIM inputs.
When I type 2000, in 7 of 10 cases it will erase the 2 and input 000 only,
finally using the cursor position as input. Which is hardly to recognize
because it is "about" the value you expected.

Not sure if possible but I would like to have a setting that ignores
cursor movements in Bricscad if < 3-5 Pixel completly.
Kind of an oil dampening.

And BTW,
Shape doesen't accept any numeric input from NumBlock for me.
Does it work for others ?

Roy Klein Gebbinck

@Michael Mayer:
Regarding your comments about mouse sensitivity:
Have you tried increasing the PICKBOX size?
Have you tried adjusting the OS's pointing device settings?

Steven_g

NumBlock is no problem here - windows 7 - desktop computer

Michael Mayer

Thanks Steven_g,
so it may have to do with me running Windows 10 in a Parallels VM
on my Mac. Although I didn't notice any problems with Bricscad V18
and NumBlock so far.
EDIT :
Yes, the latest Spectre/Meltdown Updates for Win10 and/or macOS
destroyed something.
There are many more issues. Same with Bricscad.

Roy, I did not try so far. But I even thought about de-creasing pick box
as otherwise I have to often zoom in far to get my (CTRL) Selections
and not picking accidentally edges.
I tried lowering Mouse Speeds, but I don't like to work that way.
And it also helps a bit only and does not eliminate the problem.

Interesting is that it works a bit better with Wacom Pen Input.
Although it is clear that I shake a lot more than with a Mouse.

Michael Mayer

@Steven_g said:
NumBlock is no problem here - windows 7 - desktop computer

Oh no, it was just NumLock

But the 3D Connexion devices seem to be paralyzed somehow ....
EDIT :
Unplugging the CADMouse helped to awake all its buttons.

Arthur Gan

@John TeSelle said:
I am a long-time SketchUp user, and I can see from the promotional email for Shape that pulling those users in is a marketing goal. Good to have a competitor out there and I hope Shape develops into a useful tool.

If you want to entice SketchUp users, I have a suggestion -- make a "SketchUp navigation" mode or something so that pan, orbit, zoom, etc. all work identically to SketchUp (using the mouse buttons, not selecting icons). Those operations are second nature to anyone using SketchUp, and having them translate to Shape will make people more willing to try it. A way to have one-letter shortcut keys (hotkey, not shortcut plus space or enter) would also be attractive as that way shortcuts from SketchUp could be used the same way as single-letter hotkeys to map commonly used commands.

Also, it seems that Shape is slower in display processing than SketchUp. I played around a bit with the standard template that opened up with a new document (with one man standing there). Just drawing a cube in that document and then trying to orbit around it and push-pull it had a definite display lag. For a simple drawing that seemed odd. I then imported a larger file (a model made in SketchUp, exported as DWG) that was fairly complicated. Very slow to move around and change view modes and eventually it hung up and I had to kill the application to get out.

This is not to hate on the new application or anything -- I am saying good to have this new option, but moving around easily and quickly is the first order of business in 3d modeling. If it takes an extra second or two (or more) to change view or push-pull a face, then it will be hard to get people to switch from SketchUp, which does a good job of having a snappy user interface.

By the way, my system specs are:
Intel Core i7 950 @ 3.40GHz
12MB RAM
GeForce GTX 1050 video card
Windows 10

I encounter the same experience.. Slow display and system hangs with prompt 'A fatal error has been detected, the application will be terminated..'

Michael Mayer

Had this fatal error only one time during my first 2 minutes,
when I tried to explore the side panels content.
But for me it also feels slower than Bricscad.

Joe Dunfee

@Michael Mayer said:
But the 3D Connexion devices seem to be paralyzed somehow ....
EDIT :
Unplugging the CADMouse helped to awake all its buttons.

Perhaps you would benefit from a USB hub that has individual switches for the ports. Here is an $11 USD version.
Insten 4-Port USB 2.0 Hub with Individual On Off Power Switches and LEDs | Staples
https://www.staples.com/Insten-4-Port-USB-2-0-Hub-with-Individual-On-Off-Power-Switches-and-LEDs/product_24008878

-Joe

Joe Dunfee

Using a CAD program involves a lot of physical, automatic, skills.

Switching CAD programs is sort of like changing from a QWERTY keyboard, to a Dvorak. It doesn't not matter if the Dvorak is better or not (the claims are disputed). But, the bottom line is that typing is a physical skill that gets messed-up if a QWERTY user starts on a Dvorak. Dvorak would have to be a lot better to justify the learning curve.

So, ideally, the ability to re-map functions common in other CAD programs would be available in the program. There is going to be a lot of unfamiliarity and new concepts before a person really gets to understand the program anyway. Changing stuff like how a user pans or zoom should allow a new user to feel they are becoming productive with it right away. Otherwise you have an initial learning curve that the person casually testing the program will not get over.

-Joe

Michael Mayer

@Joe Dunfee said:

Perhaps you would benefit from a USB hub that has individual switches for the ports. Here is an $11 USD version.
Insten 4-Port USB 2.0 Hub with Individual On Off Power Switches and LEDs | Staples
https://www.staples.com/Insten-4-Port-USB-2-0-Hub-with-Individual-On-Off-Power-Switches-and-LEDs/product_24008878

-Joe

This is a great Idea !
I have an USB Hub with "1" Switch and Power Supply.
Your proposal is not expensive, also available in 7 Port config
and even doesn't look bad.

Steven_g

And here in the home of Bricscad they use an AZERTY keyboard which plays havoc with my spelling if I don't watch out, and when you do find the right keys they also use a 'comma' in place of a 'point' for decimals, great fun using the two between home and work, when I get there in one piece, with everyone trying to drive the wrong way on my side of the road. In life some things are just different, and often it's the difference that makes it interesting, or at the very least it keeps your mind active.

Michael Mayer

^

I also live in a "comma" world.
Bad luck for NumBlock entry in DYNDIMS.

Joe Dunfee

I can understand when conventions like comma vs. period for decimals. This happened well before the computer age.

But, when the hipsters decided that . should be used instead of - to break up phone numbers, they did so in the computer age. Even though it tends to break computer program and their input filters, it has become well established as a common practice.

-joe

Tom Foster

Not to mention the dreaded _ which gets buried in the underline of any link to an email (thankfully never got adopted for web addresses)

Patrik Sparrman

?? Don't really understand what you guys talk about. My installation zooms nicely on the cursor with the mousewheel .
Also hold shift and press the mousewheel and it orbits fine. ( NO MAC HERE) Also you should check your Cad settings for "decimal separator" and that headache is gone. I have to agree that x-ray is a bit sluggish and as there seems to be no settings all mapped materials are gone when you bring it up in B-Cad.
Patrik

Anthony Apostolaros

@Joe Dunfee said:
... when the hipsters decided that . should be used instead of - to break up phone numbers, ...

The hipsters are on the march again. One of them sent me an e-mail this morning with this as the subject line:
closing 3.8,18

Joe Dunfee

Lets out do them.... for anyone who sends an e-mail with dates or phone numbers using decimals, reply back with dates in UNIX Epoch time, and phone numbers using the standard touch-tone letters.

-Joe

MrArch

Some good comments about Shape I think.
I was asked to offer my two cents regarding Shape a few months back. I might have been in one of my moods that day. My somewhat curt reply to Briscad was that I thought It looked like a crude effort to copy Sketchup. It really isn't though. Shape I think is really more like Solidworks or even Blender. I may be wrong but I don't think Shape was intended for Architects, or most engineering disciplines that typically work with architects. Maybe not Briscad's intent was more for manufacturing engineers. I don't know. Sketchup works well for Architects and has a large user following. Briscad 2D works great for architects. Solidworks and Blender don't, unless you need to model something organic, a waste of time trying to do in Sketchup. Both are different types of programs but can compliment each other. I think Shape might be able to also.

So, my latest and halfway re-thought recommendations for Shape would be to open it up to users and third party developers to help fill in the gaps for what's missing. It needs to be open to as many development platforms as possible. Maybe a Lisp subset (like Autolisp), Ruby, probably JS and yes even Python, along with C++ and C# of course. Shape may never gain traction with Architects but could possibly become an alternative to other solid modeling programs now used for other engineering disciplines, game development, etc.

Sketchup is fine for models that are not too complex but it can't handle anything with high polygon counts or over about 20 mb. Shape can probably handle far more right now. If Sketchup sits back and doesn't change things soon, there is a good chance users, even architects will start looking for other alternatives. This is why Briscad needs to open Shape to user based developer extensions. Access to object libraries, API and an easy to use programming platform will be needed.

I always thought AutoCad would remain the premier 2D CAD program forever. Partly by AutoDesk doing nothing and by BrisCad doing A LOT much has already changed in that arena. If BrisCad keeps developing Shape, who knows?

I also think that a very high quality rendering engine is needed. For that, a Vray extension is must. A few other less expensive renderers might also be considered. Raylectron for example.

plabill

I'm a SketchUp Pro user and I'm new at BricsCad and now totally obsessed with the software and now Shape. Love it

Pilou

It's not so fluent that SketchUp but more powerful no need plugin for some many functions!
My only problem is i can't make myteriously any multiple selections with the rectangle selection in the version Shape 19!
Worked fine with the Version Shape 18! (Windows 10)
PS Rectangular selection V19 in Spanish works fine who is not a great thing for me who speak only French & English!

luoshuo

I have the cheapest XP-Pen Star 06 Painting Tablet and it doesn't have a display but is still a great drawing tablet. It’s fine for SketchUp work.