windows/doors

G.H. Mulder

Hy,
Is there a possibility to ad a section profile to a window?
standard there rectangle - top-bottom and sides have ussally differend profyle's.

and is there a possibility to have differend levels of detail options?
or is this an option for new update?

Knut Hohenberg

Frankly, I don't think this is something Bricsys should be bothered with.

There are already enough applications available that try to cater for the exact needs of their customers in all varieties of markets, and this IMO leads to bloated and in the end unmanageable software.

I partly work with such a fossil (ArchiCAD): Gigabytes of provided objects, some of them with hundreds of parameters - you can spend hours checking them out, and in the end you still don't find exactly what you were looking for.

A versatile CAD system should not force you to content yourself with the given, but rather empower you - the educated user - to create anything you wish. BricsCAD so far mostly followed that line, and I hope they will stick to this. You should therefore not expect the provided window and door objects to cover all your needs, but rather see them as examples and a starting point to create your own.

In the attached example, I took the provided "Window_1x1.dwg" and edited it a bit according to what you asked for:

• added a parameter "FrameThicknessBottom"
• pointed the constraint for the bottom frame thickness (Distance_39) to this parameter
• added a profile, and constrained most of its faces to stick to the window frame
• added two distance constraints to keep the front and back face height constant
• added a distance constraint so that the sill will protrude 20mm from the wall surface.

If you are familiar with constraints as a concept, such modifications will only take minutes. However, if the complexity of the model increases, full parametrization may turn into a nightmare. I think that parametric objects should rather be kept simple, and that it makes more sense to replace them with static objects if you need full detail.

Michael Mayer

I second Knut's statement.
Bricscad should offer some simple nice parametrical Objects
(there are still missing a few like railings, stairs, ...)
that fit a low LOD of 1:100 - 1:50 drawings.

From there, like for Doors and Windows, you have the freedom
to add any detail or create your completely custom Objects
solutions as much as you like. Not limited by the typical Plugin
Object Toolsets you see in some other packages, which won't
reflect our special wishes and needs most times anyway.

And that's where it gets even better in Bricscad with all new tools
like "Parametrize" that will support you when creating complex
individual designs without limiting freedom.

Lukas Fertig

have you looked into the use of the BRX_2D+ layers? bimpatch might also be an option, as long as its only a few details to show the exact window installation. i would avoid increasing the complexity of the parametric windows, i've had performance problems and some weird behaviours (parametrics not updating correctly) trying to make things too fancy..

Michael Mayer

Is there a possibility to ad a section profile to a window?

It is not possible directly from the given Insertion Objects.
But as those are just Blocks including a clip volume,
dumb or more parametric, you could edit or replace the offered
Blocks by any custom Block you need.

and is there a possibility to have differend levels of detail options? or is this an option for new update?

Currently there isn't.
A workaround would be by Layer separation and Visibilities.
That could easily get complicated and cumbersome though.
Or by creating extra companion Detail Blocks that you lay over your
low res Insertion Objects (?)

So beside only Layers alone to control which parts are activated and
which aren't, such parallel Overlay States like Level of Detail
(Or Structural vs Non-Structural, Stories, HVAC vs Architectural, ...)
would be very nice to have.
To have easier control over Visibilities in Model and Layouts.

Tom Foster

LOD is ideally suited to AI I'd a thought - of which Brics is a leading light. Looking forward to it.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

I am not sure how AI can help with the LOD of windows.
But it is relatively easy to create a window with more details if the cross section of each member of the frame is fixed. You can then apply a Rigid Set constraint to each of them. See the attached example.

Tom Foster

LOD must be more than a mere rule-set about which elements to display, which complicated shapes to simplify etc, simply dependent on screen zoom or viewport scale.

Well, it can be that as a first implimentation, but AI aka machine learning can learn the preferences and style of each user, or 'house style', and offer a much more subtle LOD presentation, requiring less tweaking, per user.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

@Tom Foster:
Your last suggestion requires at least 3 major steps:

1. Digital content with a high LOD for BricsCAD BIM. Some of that content will have to comply with local traditions and standards. In the Netherlands we have our own standards for wooden window frames for example.
2. Code that takes a high LOD object and generates a lower LOD representation on the fly.
3. Code (AI) that somehow 'reads the user's mind' and uses that information to customize step #2.

Would probably require a fat computer as well. And I wonder where the user data of step #3 should be stored. You would not want to lose it in case of a computer crash.

Tom Foster

Agreed - and step 3 is exactly the wonder that AI promises to achieve.

It does not (yet?) directly 'read the user's mind' but it sees what the user does over many sessions, notes repeated patterns, compares that with the 'meaning' of numerous others' patterns, and thereby thinks it knows what the preferences of this user will be in many situations.

It's in principle what Google, FB and Amazon do, which is very scary because they do it as 'surveillance capitalism' aimed at automating us plebs for the benefit of elites
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/20/shoshana-zuboff-age-of-surveillance-capitalism-google-facebook

The challenge is for society to put a stop to that kind of use of AI/machine learning before it's too late, so its benefits can be offered as freedoms to the world.

Oh, and 'fat computers' - no problem, plentiful on 'the cloud' - but that again is presently something that plays into the above plot and has to be tamed.

CJT1963

@G.H. Mulder said:
Hy,
Is there a possibility to ad a section profile to a window?
standard there rectangle - top-bottom and sides have ussally differend profyle's.

and is there a possibility to have differend levels of detail options?
or is this an option for new update?

Hi all,

I think low, medium & high levels of details for any component in plan or section views would be useful. i.e. low for planning type drawings & high for construction drawings. I think this may demonstrate this, albeit in another CAD programme.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI3P2MEvHYY&index=31&list=PLhXdhp1wNv6AGk2nle5lWWeSuZKH-Xwlz&t=0s

Over & out,
CJT1963

muzznrae

Michael
Having to generate a typical floor plan on 8 storey refurb. project in Auckland and we are a bit ahead of the architect before modelling HVAC ductwork/pipework. Been on site and measured up beams etc and initially had no problem putting in full height glazing to atrium but now I'm finding even though the properties box of components allows me enter new values for window re height/width, it does not change actual 1X1 window size in model. I presume I have inadvertently changed a 3d constraints parameter. Tried with new drawing and same result which is strange. Forgot to thank Louis last week for prompt reply to last query too.
Really enjoying time savings created by V19 over V18 for ductwork and pipework once I figured out how to use it, especially bimdrag with flow connect and multislice to create duct lengths while still connected which allow set up/down to be modelled to find alternative routes around other services.

Cheers

Muzz

Michael Mayer

AFAIK

Windows are Blocks - referenced from another (Library) File.
These Referenced Blocks can somehow be brought into and saved in the current file.
So you could edit or exchange these Blocks for an inserted Window.

If you insert a Window it will use the Referenced Library Block to
create that Window as an "Anonymous" Block.
(Again just called "Referenced Block" in Bricscad ?)
This is because you may want to be able to use different sizes for your Windows.
With a normal Block you would change all your instanced Block Copies at once.

But you can select and edit more than one Window at a time from Property Panel.

How to select ?
Select Similar constraint options in Bricscad, for me were always on the restricted side.
I think the Structure Panel is the new Select Similar.
You can add Sizes to your custom search and order in Structure Tree.
So you should be able to find all Windows with 2,20 m heights that should now get 2,40 m.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

@muzznrae
From your description I conclude that the issue is related to the '1x1' window file.
It seems unlikely that you have accidentally modified it. Perhaps you have never used it before. You can try opening the file and comparing the parameter names against a different window file that does not show this issue.

muzznrae

Roy

Thanks for reply. I thought post hadnt gone thru as it said I didnt have permission to add pdf?
I had previously used 1x1 for centre atrium windows 3600h ard 750w by editing height and width and depth, even teaking same window for two smaller ones on each end. Then when I went back into model, properties box allowed me to edit dims but did not change window.
Since then I have tried several times to insert 1x1 and edit on insert without success, only 1x1 inserts. As I said before I even tried with clean sheet but still no success.
I opened previous model just now and It did allow me to insert/edit to 727x1825. Tyven tried again and no luck. Seems random

Cheers

Muzz

CJT1963

@Knut Hohenberg said:
Frankly, I don't think this is something Bricsys should be bothered with.

There are already enough applications available that try to cater for the exact needs of their customers in all varieties of markets, and this IMO leads to bloated and in the end unmanageable software.

I partly work with such a fossil (ArchiCAD): Gigabytes of provided objects, some of them with hundreds of parameters - you can spend hours checking them out, and in the end you still don't find exactly what you were looking for.

A versatile CAD system should not force you to content yourself with the given, but rather empower you - the educated user - to create anything you wish. BricsCAD so far mostly followed that line, and I hope they will stick to this. You should therefore not expect the provided window and door objects to cover all your needs, but rather see them as examples and a starting point to create your own.

In the attached example, I took the provided "Window_1x1.dwg" and edited it a bit according to what you asked for:

• added a parameter "FrameThicknessBottom"
• pointed the constraint for the bottom frame thickness (Distance_39) to this parameter
• added a profile, and constrained most of its faces to stick to the window frame
• added two distance constraints to keep the front and back face height constant
• added a distance constraint so that the sill will protrude 20mm from the wall surface.

If you are familiar with constraints as a concept, such modifications will only take minutes. However, if the complexity of the model increases, full parametrization may turn into a nightmare. I think that parametric objects should rather be kept simple, and that it makes more sense to replace

them with static objects if you need full detail.

**Hi Knut,
I was interested to see your reference to ArchiCAD as a "fossil" Architectural software programme. I've always read that ArchiCAD was considered by many Architectural designers as a good BIM & 3D Architectural software programme given its many years in the business. So, are these editorials I've read misleading ?

I've also understood that their Parametric editors for such things as walls, floors, roofs, stairs & doors/windows etc allows one to create your own individual elements (perhaps then save to a library) with relative ease & adjustment rather than "LONGHAND" so to speak using 3D primitives etc, (which I think is BRICSYS-BIM direction on some items) so I'm a little confused.

Prior to your post, I was wondering if BRICSYS-BIM would ever develop a full set of Parametric editors for all these important Architectural elements ?

Currently I think BRICSYS-BIM has a COMPOSITION tool for walls/floors etc to alter walls after their creation to look more detailed. I'm not too sure if this is correct & altering these items after creation seems like "back-tracking" but I think this thought process lets you draw/design from the get-go rather that deep parametric set-ups, so quite an interesting take on this process. Other BRICSYS-BIM Architectural tools I see is a basic window Window/door parametric tool. I'm not too sure if there are any more tools for creating architectural elements but would like to think this would be a consideration to help the user with design, rather than spending too much time creating items longhand.

Over & out,
CJT1963**

Michael Mayer

BIM Plugin Tools work fine as long as they cover your use case.
They can't cover all needs. And with increasing complexity they are
more or less comfortable to use.
It is not very satisfying if you reach their limits and have to switch to
standard 3D geometry and manually attaching BIM Tags.
(While Archicad seems to be one of the most sophisticated Apps
that is very specialized and covers most users needs very well)

Bricscad's approach is basically unlimited.
With its 3D Constraint System, the parametric "Tools" basically happens
in Object Property Palette.
You can create any complex parametric Window you can imagine.

But as working with constraints is a quite abstract and complicated
job, I also think that architectural Software Users are overburdened
with Building Part creation and I don't see that as their job either.

So like Software with parametric BIM Tools offers these Tools to allow
users to easily setup their parts,
I think for Bricscad it just means to provide us with more of those
parametric constrained (Dynamic Block-like) Part "Assemblies".
Like some Stairs, Railings, more detailed Windows and Doors,
Curtain Wall Types, ....
At least a complete collection to cover the most standard basic needs.

Could be also by getting Building Manufacturers to offer their Models,
beside RVT/RFA or Archicad for Bricscad as Components too.
Or from "BIMObject TM" Libraries and such.

Knut Hohenberg

@CJT1963

Sorry for not replying more timely, I am not constantly following the forum lately.

referring to ArchiCAD as a fossil is certainly biased and may even be seen as unjust: ArchiCAD is a very mature and capable product, and mostly very intuitive to use. But - as it is the case with AutoCAD - maturity also means there are some strings attached.

So what you have read is true: ArchiCAD's parametric objects are very powerful, and you can save them with all your preferred settings to an equivalent of BricsCAD's tool palettes. But if you want to go beyond what they offer by mere parameter input, you have to learn the language they are defined in (GDL, a simple basic variant) , and dig through possibly many thousand lines of code, plus you need solid knowledge in mathematics to construct complex parametric 3d-objects (there is no graphical way to do so). Although this approach (parametric objects as scripts) offers theoretically unlimited freedom, I guess the percentage of ArchiCAD-users who can take advantage from this is so small that they can safely be neglected. In the end (at least in my experience), most ArchiCAD-users seem to content themselves with what they are given.

BricsCAD's parametric objects are comparatively less capable, but they can be created and edited by every user who has basic understanding of constraint-based modeling, which conforms more to my idea of a generic CAD-program (but I still think LISP could be leveraged to create a more powerful version of what Graphisoft did with GDL).

If I should sum up the IMO most important pros and cons for ArchiCAD vs. BricsCAD, I would put it like this:

• In ArchiCAD, 2d-plans are just another (editable) representation of the 3d-model, which makes associativity of dimensions etc. a no-brainer, while this looks like a major problem with BricsCAD's approach, where 2d-drawings are separate entities derived from a 3d-model. The same applies to concurrent editing (aka teamwork), where ArchiCAD offers solid database functionality, while BricsCAD just has file locking (which requires to break a model down to small pieces).
• ArchiCAD's geometric kernel is much weaker than BricsCAD's (basically a CSG-mesh-modeler compared to a state-of-the-art BREP modeler), and its developers made a lot of presumptions about architectural modeling that are limiting for everything else. ArchiCAD will therefore probably never break out of its niche, while I see the potential for BricsCAD to reinstall dwg as a viable platform for all design needs.

Michael Mayer

Going back to the initial Question from here ....

1.

@G.H. Mulder said:
Hy,
Is there a possibility to ad a section profile to a window?
standard their rectangle - top-bottom and sides have usually different profile's.

I assume with current 3D Constraints that would not be impossible
but far from being funny. The need lock or relate all Faces,
coming from complex Profiles and Details, with each other.
To get a parametric Window object that can change at least length and width.

2.

and is there a possibility to have differend levels of detail options?
or is this an option for new update?

I think this would need another Classification System, similar to Layers.
As we have Layers only in Bricscad I think that would work like any other
primitive CAD approach in such cases :
Create new Layers for another use-case, LOD in this case.
(Beside Systems of Layers, used for e.g. 3D Object Types, Materials,
2D and Annotations, ....)
Something like :
X_LOD_200_2D_MIDRES

I think at this stage of complexity there would be far more efficient options
for programers to organize and parametrize such complexity from the
Software side.
(like extruding profiles along paths + boolean unions
vs
constraining many many faces)
I think that is too complex for a standard BIM user and not efficient to try
to build an own "parametric" Window Block like Bricscad's Default Windows.

So here is my proposal.
(As long as the overall Window, like its Profiles don't change)
You create one Window Template Block with all 3D Details and maybe LODs.
And create duplicate Blocks to insert for every different dimensioned Window.
As it is easier and faster to adapt Windows Dimensions by direct Modeling Tools
at whole 3D Window geometry level than pre-configuring complex 3D Constraints.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

Pity the OP @G.H. Mulder can't be bothered to respond.

(BTW: The forum software does not handle his username, or any username with spaces, properly)

@Michael Mayer
As I have already demonstrated creating a parametric window with complex profiles is actually relatively easy. See my first contribution to this topic. Using layers for the LOD can work and would not make things much harder.

Michael Mayer

Sorry, missed or already forgot your example.
Yes, I think it is feasible.
Just for me it would be easier to create the Window Block Duplicates
for each Window type. And could use your script to replace inserted
Windows with different types (*?)
Just a proposal.

I thought that normally different types are kept low for cost reasons
anyway.

(*?)
I think it is already possible to replace inserted elements.
But still not sure if that will work with standard Blocks (and instancing)
or all those other Block-ish derivates available in the Autodesk Universe.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

I am unsure of the workflow you envision. Nor do I know what Bricsys has in mind here. But to get from conceptual drawings, where every window and door is fully parametric, to detailed construction drawings, with a high LOD, may be an involved process.

1. Identify windows that are (almost) identical and replace with a new component/block with fixed dimensions.
2. Identify windows that are mirrored versions of each other (even is their components are not mirrored), and do the same.
3. Exchange the fixed widow components/blocks with high LOD versions (perhaps containing some 2D 'overlays'). Or use components with multiple LODs.

One way to approach this would be to nest parametric windows in fixed components from the start, thereby avoiding steps 1 and 2.

Michael Mayer

Interesting,

First,
I think the ability to "Find" AND "Replace" any kind of Block,
if inserted, standard, anonymous, ... or not,
would be very useful in general.

Second,
for my purposes where there are just real repetitions of the exact
same insertion elements, I would like an option that these copies
are real (called referenced ?) Blocks and not anonymous Blocks.
Would help a lot, to find them and to replace them, plus keeps
file size low and OpenGL fast.
But in reality you will find projects where "similar" Objects will be
quite unique instead anyway. Like the same Door that will need
a fire rating here but security glass there and such things.
So overall Bricscad's approach of always inserting anonymous
Block copies, instead of instancing, may not be such an issue.
Getting an option would be fine though.

For the LOD,
I think changing LOD by replacing Blocks for different design phases
is a good idea. But basically you need all LODs all time available.
Scale dependent for your generated plan drawings, adjustable for
your 3D Model when modeling and for exports.
There is a reason why Archicad implemented that quite good and
automated into their parametric Tools and Objects. Vectorworks
started similar approach with their current release.
Before people worked around by their "Scale" Layers and "Annotation"
Layers instead to control detail visibilities.

One way to approach this would be to nest parametric windows in fixed components from the start, thereby avoiding steps 1 and 2.

I think this is a very good idea.
Parametric Window Parts inside a parametric Window.

Offering a few basic Window "Styles".
Wood, Aluminium, Plastic, Steel. With their their typical Profiles,
Materials and Layer settings.
Staring from a parent Cased Opening, adding a number different kind of
openings and configurations.

Roy Klein Gebbinck

What I meant is quite different and relies more on end-user 'discipline'. For every window/door the user would create a fixed component:

1. Copy default BIM windows to a local project folder (or 'office defaults' folder?).
2. Change the materials (if required).
3. Fix the dimensions of the profiles (if required).
4. Insert such a modified BIM window in an empty file, change dimensions and add a 'subtractor' solid (perhaps with some basic constraints).
5. _SaveAs 'Mark_AA'.
6. Etc.

G.H. Mulder

I work for years with Pointline 19,5
In this program it's very simpel too draw a polyline with a profile en change simply between differend proflles.

I made an example of what i mean.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dih90k9pxa62at7/PL_kozijn_11-05-19.m4v?dl=0

Michael Mayer

That sounds like a history based Modeler.
Like e.g. Vectorworks.
You can always go back into an Edit Mode and manipulate
or replace path and/or Profile.
Opposite, e.g. Bricscad, Microstation or Modo are destructive
Modelers. Both ways have their Pros and Cons.

In a destructive Modeler you would normally keep some
Duplicates of your components on Backup Layers if it is
likely that you will do modifications.
So basically you have to redo or recreate a path extrude.