Select + Drag Combination missing ?

Michael Mayer

While in ACAD Selection is just a thing that happens in the void between commands,
Every CAD, 2D or 3D App I used has an explicit Selection "Tool"
(Except Modo, which behaves the similar, but that state behaves like a Tool with all options)

And in a Selection Tool (or only Mode),
there was always a Drag Mode included.

• a Click over an Object does a Selection (like in BC)
• a Click over blank screen space opens the Marquee Selection (like in BC)
  but (unlike in BC),
  a Click and hold over an Object, followed by Cursor movement does a Drag Action immediately.
  (Including all needed Snap Actions)

In BC I need to first Click Select and Object followed by a second Click Drag.
(So it works more like a more tedious Move action, except that it offers 1 click less
by Click-Hold-Drag-Release(!) instead of Clickselect-ClickStart-ClikeTargetPosition)

One extra Click doesn't sound much but here it is the double amount of clicks
if you need to do that repeatedly, so it sums up noticeably and also interrupts
any Work-Flow.

I could ClicK and Hold to wait for the Manipulator but it is a bit unwieldy too.
Especially if you are freehand drawing in preliminary design phase.

What I would wish for beside a direct Drag Option is that Drag Mode will also include
DYNDIMS or numerical Input/Correction options, beside just Snaps only.

Louis_Verdonck

What about using the following Quad procedure (Quad on hover = on):
Place the cursor over an entity, when it highlights choose Move in the Modify tab (or Copy if you want to copy the entity).

Michael Mayer

Hi Louis,
I would say that is also quite cumbersome and needs a lot of fatiguing
concentration, opposed to just grabbing things.
I tried.
(While thinking that Moving is more tedious than Grabbing,
because of need to Clickselect-ClickStart-ClikeTargetPosition,
instead of Click-Hold-Drag-Release)

But now I see that there is no Snap for Dragging at all (?)
So only freehand dragging in Bricscad.

My use case was a 2D Grid where I ordered Texts and lots of
Thumbnail-like Images on those Grids.
It was so fast and enjoyable in VW to grab my Thumbnails and
align them with and resize them to the Grid.
Or rearrange them with so few clicks.

Hovering over an Object will Highlights Selection,
a single Click will :
Select the Object
AND
take the next Snap Point in tolerance to activate Snap(1) when Dragging
(1) not when just grabbing in an Objects Fill where no Snap option)

While dragging it is either freehand
OR
it will snap precisely when over a potential Snap Point
OR
you input Numbers, like DYNDIM

Very important for such Drag Actions in crowded Drawings is that,
when an Object got preselected before,
it will keep reliably that Selection to Drag - as long as the cursor still
hovers over the selected Object.
(And not start a new the automatic Selection of other Objects,
that may be more on top in 2D Stacking Order und such)
If the Cursor outside of selected Object(s), It will of course do a
new Selection.
(Of course these actions rely on a ADDSELECT OFF default)
But that was also a Feature that wasn't there until recent years ino VW.
Before, Dragging was pretty useless in many situations.

Also there are Cursor Hints that indicate that and where a precise Drag
with Snap is possible or no Hint when it will be freehand only.

And addition to the Drag Mode, without extra Selection,
there is also a difference in 2D Object Edit Mode.
After Selection of an Object, like in Bricscad,
there is the option to grab Vertices or Edges to manipulate the Object.
Also like in BC, instead of sub-edits, you can still drag the object as a whole
instead.
The Difference between BC and VW is that in BC, to drag, you can't grab
the Object at any manipulation indicator,
while in VW you can. Which will allow precision edits with snapping.
(Depending on the way your cursor approaches + showing different
Cursor Hints between sub-edit or move mode)

Louis_Verdonck

"The Difference between BC and VW is that in BC, to drag, you can't grab
the Object at any manipulation indicator,
while in VW you can. Which will allow precision edits with snapping.
(Depending on the way your cursor approaches + showing different
Cursor Hints between sub-edit or move mode)"

Did you already try 'Entity snap tracking' or 'Temporary tracking points' when moving (or copying) entities?
Entity snap tracking: click the STRACK field in the Status bar to toggle.
Temporary tracking points: click the icon on the Entity Snaps toolbar (first icon) or type TK in the command bar.

Michael Mayer

Yes I have all activated.
Couldn't even work without them. Very essential
And BTW quite VW like.

(Beside that I sometimes miss the Mid Point on tracking lines
between 2 tracking points)

I think I get that there may be dependencies and restrictions so
that certain features aren't in fact possible at all without changing
the whole system from ground up.
Not my intention.

OK,
I am ok with the extra need to select first.
Clicks are cheap inputs.
Next, Quad helps.
Not completely non-tedious or inexpensive, but it ends in Move Tool
being the way to go. Not such an issue.
So far I am ok or satisfied.

Where it's a pity again is if I need to do that repeatedly.
(I think the most time I am repeating a same Action.
Like when placing Columns - I will place Columns for a while)
If only :

• the Move Command would stay active
• the Selection would be kept (until I select anything else in between)
  I could be pretty much as fast as in VW

Like :

• Move something there - realize at would look better over there - redo action
• Move Object(1) - switch () to do similar with Object(n) - ....
  () by holding a Key (CMD in VW) to activate temporary Selection while inside active Command)

Similar to Microstation's (very stringent, over all Tools) Behavior by very cheap RMB clicks.
(A form of rejecting current state or switch for alternatives. Like it starts cycling through
possible other Selections, or rejecting a previous accidental click and such)
Where 1x RMB Reject is always 1 Level in Tool depth :

• Enter a Tool
• do a Selection
• Execute the Tool (n-times if needed)
• RMB Reject : ready for new Selection
• re-Execute the Tool again (n-times)
  while,
  Exit a Tool = just means or needs to activate another Tool

Anthony Apostolaros

@Michael Mayer said:
..... If only :

• the Move Command would stay active
• the Selection would be kept (until I select anything else in between)
  I could be pretty much as fast as in VW .....

Michael, that is possible, with a little customization -- as we discussed before. The selection set can remain selected, and then you just have to press the space bar each time you move it. To work that way, you just have to turn off PICKADD, and make a slight customization of all the drawing and editing commands you use frequently, so that each editing command ends with the selection set still selected and highlighted, and each drawing command ends with the new object(s) selected and highlighted.

I've been working that way for a long time. It's much more pleasant. I don't know if it's actually faster, but it feels faster, or more streamlined. Entering all those L's and P's was very annoying and distracting. I used Autocad for 7 or 8 years before I ever heard of VectorWorks, but I immediately preferred working that way. So when I had to return to AC I customized it to work like VW.

It might not be very convenient to work that way if you draw everything with lines, because then you'd have to hold the shift key down while creating a selection set (since PICKADD has to be off). I tend to use polylines and grouped assemblies, and simple selection set filtering commands, so I rarely have to hold the shift key down. I can usually get the selection set I want with a single Window or Crossing, and sometimes a quick filter such as Q1 or QH (color 1 or hatch entities). For more complex selections, I have a custom SELECT command that turns PICKADD on temporarily just while creating and highlighting one selection set, and then turns it off. It's important to turn it off automatically to avoid inadvertently including the previous selection set in the new one, which could have catastrophic results such as accidentally deleting the previous selection set.

Michael Mayer

Yes, Anthony,
thanks for reminding me.
I am very impressed with what you did there.

But if I would feel that comfortable with editing each Command and
feel save to be able to migrate that to new versions or another
machine, I would likely also like or prefer to work with the Command Line.
And honestly I don't see it as my task.

Many of the given ACAD workaround settings make you run into problems
and inconsistencies, like PickAdd. Or forcing Tools to repeat doesn't work that
smooth either when you want to finally stop them.

Currently I'm still in a state where I try to understand and to gauge what
is possible in Bricscad or its near future UI/UX and what definitely has to stay.
And if I want to bear that and get used to it or stay or look for something
more suitable for my use special case. And finally be able to have only
one single App and OS per task instead of three.

It is not about Bricscad getting VW-like.
VW ist just a nice example to argument because it is so contrary to ACAD.
There are enough inconsistencies and things that don't work smooth in VW,
that will also never change because of dependencies.
It is basically about Autocad-ness vs standard or any superior behavior.

Michael Mayer

About what is really faster, not sure either.
But as you said, it is quite important that it feels fast, which makes you happy.

With Microstations total consistency, where you can work for to weeks one-handed
by Mouse only without ever needing to touch your keyboard. Having total control
over the basics, like selections for push pull and navigation in 3D space, by lot of
repetitions of very simple user actions,
it is more tedious for simple Models but very fast in crowded files.
So much less visibility switching and view navigation needed.
Nevertheless Bricscad could be faster at the end with the ability to select more
than just a single face for push pull.
(OK, MS has its Fence Manipulation option though)

But I am pretty sure that dragging objects around with snap, staying Selection
and Tools, "parametric" basic objects with nice colored fills, 1-2 letter shortcuts,
tool option always availability and such IS much faster, more fun and more
satisfying in standard basic tasks.

Knut Hohenberg

To return to the OP:
Adding yet another method to translate objects with point-to-point snapping does not look very appealing to me, I would rather see a valuable addition to BricsCAD's tool set if dragging objects would put them into some sort of 'dynamic align' mode, similar to b(i)minsert.

Anthony Apostolaros

@Michael Mayer said:
you can work for two weeks one-handed
by Mouse only without ever needing to touch your keyboard.

Just curious... what are you doing with your other hand?

Michael Mayer

Eating or just rest it on my Tablet screen when I'm tired

Michael Mayer

@Knut Hohenberg said:
To return to the OP:
Adding yet another method to translate objects with point-to-point snapping does not look very appealing to me, I would rather see a valuable addition to BricsCAD's tool set if dragging objects would put them into some sort of 'dynamic align' mode, similar to b(i)minsert.

You may be right about no new drag option needed.
Could be more like a Quick Move/Copy Tool Option.

Hold Cursor over an Object's potential snap point snap point,
wait for Quad,
when Quad open choose Move or Copy,
Move or Quad will instantly start DYNDIMming from previous
snap point.
(1 Click saved)

BTW
Snapped Dragging in VW is only used because their other Copy/Move
Combo is so inconsistent and tedious that not many use it or even know
about that tool.
With MS copy and move tools I never wished for something faster.
And it took a few years until I heard about it. I was told that many people
use drag option in MS as it is much faster (?).
As far as I remember there was also a hidden numerical input option.

It is just that I did my 2D Layouts in VW with that instant Drag and realized
how fast and how much fun it is to use.

Anthony Apostolaros

@Michael Mayer said:
Eating or just rest it on my Tablet screen when I'm tired

Interesting. I would never have thought of that. I don't eat while working, and I don't need to rest one hand when not eating, so I draw with two hands.

Or is "rest it on my tablet screen" a euphemism for something that can't be posted here?

Michael Mayer

Like in the past with Pen and Paper.
One hand holds the screen, supports the upper body or even head,
right hands moves the pen.
Basically the same when using a mouse.

I don't eat while working

Can save some time if necessary ...
(etched Glass is easier to clean than a Keyboard)
I know, breaks are important ....

Anthony Apostolaros

You did hand drafting with one hand also?
That's amazing. I'm very impressed.
Do you have some video?

Michael Mayer

Ah, I don't really get it ....
(my english ?)
when I write notes on a piece of dead wood,
my left hand may just hold or even move the dead wood from time.
But basically, most time it rests on the paper only.

Ah, drafting,
left hand moves Mayline + Protactor ....
but when just sketching - left arm holds chin.

Anthony Apostolaros

@Michael Mayer said:
but when just sketching - left arm holds chin.

Or holds food, or "rests on tablet screen."
I understand now.