Compositions do not make sense

Michael Mayer

I am currently modeling an existing small residential building.
And I try to make it quite detailed.

The more I watch my BIM modeling I question its meaning.
Thesis : Compositions as we have now make no sense at all.

For me it does not make sense to not have a separation of
Structural and Finishing/Covering Elements.
For me it does not make sense :
- to interrupt an ongoing Wall just because the next Room may
have no Plaster at one side. (I even have ignored Plaster type
differences or even paint colors or any other Surface covers
like Tapetes and such
- It gives strange situations in T or L Wall joints
- I would not ever use overall Compositions for Slabs + Floors
(but what if I will also have Plaster ceiling here but not in the next Room)
- What about partial tiling Layers in Baths and Toilets, another
parameter to cut and edit Wall segments

Issues are endless.

You need and can do switch to show Composition Levels to detail
Situations where you PushPull e.g. your Insulation up to nearly above ground.
Or pull it around the Slab.
But you will presented by 2-3 boundary Selections for the whole package.

AFAIK the only problem to model in kind of a "multi Wall" environment
between Structure and Finishing is that BIM Subtract Objects can only
effect a single Object and should be much more detailed.
Also the Openings Side should be much more aware of the situation.
Like flowing in Plaster and or Insulation.
Also all Interior Coverings just derive from Space settings.


So my wish for a sophisticated BIM CAD is to make BIM Subtract Elements
cut multiple Elements, separation from going through structural elements
and finishings, which are defined and created by Space Settings or filled
around selected Walls and Slabs on the outside.

Piet

Hi Michael,
I think this is a general LOD problem in any BIM workflow. Keeping multi-ply wall allows a lot of flexibility in creating and editing models. Having plies as separate solids gives a lot of flexibility in editing the plies.

Are you aware of the BIMDECOMPOSE command that allows to 'explode' a multi-ply entity in separate plies? And also the BMLINK command to change the target of an opening/window solid to multiple target solids. With this command you can make an opening in all the plies when they are modeled separately.

About finishing/covers/ceilings I don't see another way than to model them separately if they have different heights or thickness of elevation. As you suggest it would be interesting to move some of these 'properties' to the spaces instead of the walls/slabs.

It all comes down to what you want to do with the BIM model, the LOD, how to calculate quantities etc.

Michael Mayer

Piet said:

Are you aware of the BIMDECOMPOSE command that allows to 'explode' a multi-ply entity in separate plies? And also the BMLINK command to change the target of an opening/window solid to multiple target solids. With this command you can make an opening in all the plies when they are modeled separately.

Thanks Piet !

No, heard of them for the first time ! Are they new in V23 ?
Didn't even find them in BC Help - as Browser was set to German BC Help
Found them now in original EN Help.
But why so hidden, I don't find both Commands neither in Quad nor in Menu

Looks extremely useful.

Did I get that correct,
When I separate my Walls in Structural vs Cladding again, or model them that way,
When adding the Cladding Solid (and/or others) to Window Component by BMLINK,
when I move or resize my Windows ... all 2-3 Wall's Slices will automatically adapt
to the new opening dimensions ?

Then, in my special case this way of modeling would make much sense,
opposed to larger but more standardized and repetitive buildings.


It can just be a bit laborious to set all Links.
So by what I am used of BC's AI tools or former BIM drag,
wouldn't it be possible for BC's AI, when an inserted Component gets changed,
to automatically check and search if the Insertion Object has other touching
BIM Elements at same or similar suitable BIM types, which may need a similar
changes as the Insertion Object itself ?
Or as part of the Propagate AI to run a check though all Window situations
if their "attached" Plies do still fit after changes.

Piet

Hi Michael,
I'm glad I could help.
It is a workflow we don't get a lot feedback from. If you try it and have any support requests, please create one in https://boa.bricsys.com/en-eu/support/.

There is an option during insertion of components to select target solids, but I admit this is not so user friendly. When a component is linked to different target solids they do keep the link and will update when moving a window.
When using decompose, a multiply wall well gets converted to a block, classified as wall, containing unclassified solids. Maybe the 'Block2Solid.lsp' script in \en_US\Support\Bim\Scripts can be helpful to explode the blocks and transfer BIM data to the solids .

Michael Mayer

Piet said:

Hi Michael,
There is an option during insertion of components to select target solids, but I admit this is not so user friendly. When a component is linked to different target solids they do keep the link and will update when moving a window.

I am very happy about that.
I have not seen such feature anywhere else. This is great !

I think this has a great impact here.
Dramatic decrease in needed Wall Compositions.
Much easier and better Wall Connections.
More logical and simpler Geometry.
Avoids mmost of more tedious the connection/editing at Ply level.

It hink I will try that and think that's worth to rebuilding the Model.

Piet said:

Hi Michael,
When using decompose, a multiply wall well gets converted to a block, classified as wall, containing unclassified solids. Maybe the 'Block2Solid.lsp' script in \en_US\Support\Bim\Scripts can be helpful to explode the blocks and transfer BIM data to the solids .

Seems like an Autocad Behavior Compatibility Limitation
I never do want Block Content to get exploded with Block Settings/Attributes.
(AFAIK one of the XPLODE/EXPLODEs does the trick for Blocks)

For the Wall Block this would be the same as IFC Objects in VW. VW puts everything
in a parent IFC Container for any reasons. If you want to free the content, only the
Container holds the IFC tag and is lost. Which makes working with IFC imports in VW
unnecessarily useless.

So far I would have expected BIMDECOMPOSE to just separate each Ply as a Solid.
(Maybe keeping the overall BIM Tag and auto name them "BIM Tag_Ply name" ?)

But what I would wish for in my case is a separation in 3 packages :
- exterior Insulation Plies combined
- structural Ply
- interior covering Ply(ies)

Michael Mayer

Rebuilding would mean .... detaching Wall's compositions.
It wouldn't be that bad to create the interior+ exterior coverings
by Extrude of Boundaries from scratch.

But I can't simply apply a new narrower Ply to the main structural
Wall core. As BC can only change the Wall thickness from the defined
most outer Face. Which would basically move my core Walls off and
I would need to re align them.
(Which a general problem for me, even just for standard Composition
change needs)

Will have to think about to find a best workflow ....

ScottS

I am happy for this discussion. It is a complicated issue because of multi-layered assemblies and the fact that different layers take priority for different aspects of design. Space planning prioritizes interior finished surfaces, structure requires alignment of load-bearing centerlines, lightweight framing layout might measure to face of studs or face of sheathing, etc.

I've started adding thin 3D solids on separate layers to differentiate wood flooring, say, from tiled surfaces. I must remember to classify them as "coverings" or Bimify gets confused over multiple slab levels. For the most part, I've found it faster to swap material options (e.g., for design visualization) by managing distinct [CAD] layers than by defining yet more BIM compositions, though I've been steadily adding to my library of those as well.

BIMDECOMPOSE is new to me, too; I'll try it out. I've relied on BMLINK and it's counterpart BMUNLINK for some time and wondered where they went in the new v23 ribbon. I found them in the Mech Assembly ribbon tab, which is in the Mechanical and Complete workspaces but off by default in BIM workspace.

Michael Mayer

ScottS said:

I've found it faster to swap material options (e.g., for design visualization) by managing distinct [CAD] layers than by defining yet more BIM compositions, though I've been steadily adding to my library of those as well.

That is my current BIM Classes (here Layer) System, derived from my other CAD.
We usually call it Container Classes vs Material Classes (vs 2D Classes)

Container Layers would include :
Things like Plugin Objects, Blocks, Components, (multy-Ply) BIM Objects, ....
- A_COLUMNS
- A_DOORS
- A_FURNITURE
- A_SLABS
- A_WALLS
- A_WINDOWS
- ......

while
Material Layers will be assigned to :
Child Objects of the Container Layers above, e.g. Plies, Block Content, ... or just other Solids
- M_METAL_ALUMINIUM_BRUSHED
- M_METAL_ALUMINIUM_ANODIZED_CYAN
- M_STONE_PLASTER_ROUGH
- M_STONE_CONCRETE_CIP
- M_PLASTIC_BLACK_MATTE
- M_WOOD_OAK_PARKET
- M_WOOD_OAK_OILED
- .....

This way ....
- you can easily assign and control all Objekt's Properties by Layer
- Control Visibilities in 2 dimensions :
a) show only all A_COLUMNS vs b) show all M_CONCRETE Objects


For me personally I would be very helpful if assigning a BIM Tag to a Solid,
would also automatically assign it to the correct Layer.

ScottS

I can see the advantages of your dual layering system. But doesn't all that organization get lost in the generated 2D section drawings? Or have you found a clever way to define BimSection output layers to keep them consistent?

Typed Plans has helped and I'm grateful for Fleur's further improvements to that in v23.

I am still missing fine control over the outer boundary of section cuts vs. internal edges resulting on (default) intersection boundary layers. See https://forum.bricsys.com/discussion/35949. BimSection knows the difference and even draws outer boundaries on their own frozen(!) layer according to compositions, not material. (Not unlike your A_ and M_ layer hierarchy.) As far as I know, this remains undocumented, and I'd like to be able to specify those layers' properties and to union boundaries with adjacent walls, etc. (SR134718).

Back to 3D models, I used to organize them in a similar way to your container A_ layers, generally. But since Structure Browser has become so powerful, layering by type starts to feel redundant. So I've been introducing more material-based (M_) layers, for the aforementioned ease of swapping rendering materials, within 3D models only—we still try to keep 2D drawing layers organized by discipline and type. However, as you've pointed out, the logic starts to break down with multi-ply compositions. Unless maybe their physical material layers could be as easily managed as CAD layers.

Michael Mayer said:

For me personally I would be very helpful if assigning a BIM Tag to a Solid,
would also automatically assign it to the correct Layer.

Lisp or a macro could let you customize the BIM Classify command to automatically assign layers. I guess a list of conditional "if BIM type x, then layer y" would work, or maybe somebody has a more elegant solution?

Michael Mayer

OK, I refine.
BIM Tags set Solids to Container Layer
and Building Material Settings set Material Layers


But thinking of my other CAD,
I want automatically generated Layers only if I can edit/adapt
them to my custom Layer Naming Standard.

Yes, Structural Browser is overall absolutely great.
Nevertheless I see myself still too often managing in Layer Palette.

Michael Mayer

Piet said:

BMLINK command to change the target of an opening/window solid to multiple target solids. With this command you can make an opening in all the plies when they are modeled separately.

If I get BMLINK right,
as it uses the BIM_SUBTRACT Volume ....
Once I Inserted a Window into a Structural Wall, and later model an Insulation Layer,
the BMLINK command to add the Insulation Layer,
would not cut the Insulation Layer anyway, as the Subtract Volume ends at the outer
Face of the Structural Wall where it was inserted !?

So I would need to reinsert the Window into the outer faces of Insulation Layer "Wall"
again ?

This calls for Bricscad AI task, I think.
Which means something like, look for Openings from BIM Insertions - which are occluded
by other Solids - and ask (check boxes) if Bricscad should also cut them to guarantee free
vision !?

Michael Mayer

Another problem.

Bim Insertions still work from the Walls outer side.
(Usually I model each Story so that the Wall Tops end (*) where the bottom of Slab,
next Story begins - so that I look inside from above. Other than engineers who prefer
a "Table" Model, according to load bearing ....)

And usually the structural Wall core sits on its Slab, while the (*) outer Insulation Layer
extends over the thickness of its (Stories) Slab downwards.
So, when inserting e.g. Windows, I have no clue about the parapet Wall Height value
of the Window's bottom.
Which I would only have from the view from inside the Room !


I always thought V23 would have updated this.
As when I select a Window from the inside View of a Room, I get wonderful
DYNDIMS from my interior Walls, Finish Floor and Slab above !
(Would have been such a great feature !!!)

But I soon realized that when selecting such a Window from the outside,
I still get the same interior DYNDIMS.
In my case it is just because my IFC export seemed to have fooled Bricscad
about the insertion direction of my IFC Windows or made them mirror.

(Which may also be the reason why my V23 always crashes after selecting a single
Solid, which has a Door/Window BIM Insertion, once DYNDIMS get crazy .... )

pieter.clarysse@hexagon.com

Hi Michael

Glad to let you know that
- we fixed the dyndims going crazy, they should behave in V23.1.08
- V23.2 has the feature you just described: selecting a window when looking at it from the inside, you'll get inside dimensions. Select it while looking at it from the outside, you get outside dimensions.

Tom Foster

Hi Pieter - glad to see you're still Mr BIM!

Michael Mayer

pieter.clarysse@hexagon.com said:

Hi Michael

Glad to let you know that
- we fixed the dyndims going crazy, they should behave in V23.1.08
- V23.2 has the feature you just described: selecting a window when looking at it from the inside, you'll get inside dimensions. Select it while looking at it from the outside, you get outside dimensions.

OMG

These are fantastic news.

I search each day for a V23.1.08.
V23 is so much better but I have to use V22 instead.
When I try again V23.1.07, it takes less than 20 minutes until I accidentally select
a Solid and get a ghost DYNDIM and need to close V23 before V23 closes itself ...


Looks like V23.2 will be again a great upgrade.
Control Inserts from the inside is again a huuuge feature !


BTW
is there an estimate when .08 could be available ?