BricsCAD 3D for HVAC Shop Drawings
I am currently looking to switch to BricsCAD, but I need for the software to handle creating detailed HVAC shop drawings in 3D format. The drawings I create would need to be capable of duct lengths, dimensioning, section views and 2D layout views. Level of detail is very important...
Does anyone have any experience with this type of drafting that can share what software they use? BricsCAD looks impressive, but from what I can see so far, I will need an add on software to work with BricsCAD?
I welcome and look forward to hearing opinions and advice.
Thanks!
Does anyone have any experience with this type of drafting that can share what software they use? BricsCAD looks impressive, but from what I can see so far, I will need an add on software to work with BricsCAD?
I welcome and look forward to hearing opinions and advice.
Thanks!
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Comments
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I produce (subcontract) HVAC shop dwgs and have found Bcad an excellent replacement for Autocad.
Bricscad is/was part of the intellicad group and I had used this software since the original Intellicad 98.
I have explored 3d just a little, both within Bcad and other options, but where contracts called for dwg format in the past some are now calling for revit.
Dwg or Rvt seem to be the only choices in Australia at least, unless all your work is in house.
You have to rent Autodesk software and frankly I don't earn enough, especially for new software I would have to stop and learn.
I use many small lisp routines for such as showing/hiding builders work layers and scheduling, Acad Lt would always have been a poor alternative.0 -
For 2D I use library of own LISP routines, for draving ducts and pipes, manage layer etc...For 3D ("DWG" world) I use AX3000 for ventilation (https://www.bricsys.com/applications/a/?ax3000.b-a289-al491). But don't have experience with situation, when investor need output to Revit.It contains calculating and drawing utilities. For whole drawing and section it's great, fast. Time to time need handly make-up. But if you mean with details, details in 1:5, 1:10, etc... We make it still as 2D "by hand".For another projects, where investor require his own system and DGN we using bentley + tricad products, but this is another world and system.0
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Thanks for the replies.
I have approximately 18 years experience with producing HVAC shop drawings and have a well set up 2D block library and lisp routine. The industry is 3D now though and I really need to catch up.
Some of the software I have been looking at are ;
CATS Software
Auto Fluid
4M
I need for the add on programs to work with BricsCAD. Autodesk is out of this world with pricing and the forced subscription.
I am quite sold on BricsCAD, but I need a HVAC add on that does 3D.
Thanks0 -
I am not that big of a fan of REVIT and I still see most projects requiring Cad. I think if possible, I will avoid REVIT.0
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Yes, this is pretty good and I have been looking into this software. Does anyone have any feedback on how well it works? Most of the videos are showing 2D only. I have seen one video where it will take your 2D drawing and convert to 3D. That looked impressive, but I am not sure how it all works.
Thanks0 -
Before checking out BricsCAD, I was looking at AviCAD with Mech-Q. While this was geared toward mechanical HVAC, the software was based on more of the American system with fittings and I am not able to use this due to industry standards. AviCAD also cannot currently produce section views.
I have wondered if Mech-Q works better with BricsCAD? Are there more suitable 3D duct fittings available that are inline with the UK, NZ and Australian market?
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Stevo, there are some issues that aren't clear in my mind apart from the granted usefulness of 3d duct, the appeal of staying in dwg format etc.
I work a lot with supplied 2d architectural .dwgs (or bad conversions from archicad etc), only structural steel are sometimes supplied as rather cluttered 3d models - I guess all backgrounds would have to be 'made 3d'?
Sketchy hydraulic drawings are in usually PDF, I have been converting them to CAD and overlaying them.
Similarly timber trusses, concrete beams etc, redrawing them can be as much physical drawing work as drawing the duct.
So much of our work is around fitting duct and equipment and resizing - as automated as duct drawing may be made, we still have to deal with all the rest.
I'm still not convinced 3d would be a net benefit, with all things considered. Or perhaps dedicated duct software only a marginal advantage in the whole scheme.0 -
I work in the industrial refrigeration field, and been wrestling with the 2D vs 3D issue for a while. I suspect that 2D will keep its hold on drafting forever. In reality, we don't want reality on our drawings. We want a simplification of reality, or the drawing gets far too cluttered to be meaningful.There are certainly also times when 3D is needed. I sometimes show pipe routings for refrigeration lines, to help show the installer how I want the pipes routed. I wish there were an easy way to create the 3D model from the 2D drawing. But I just don't see a way.I also see 2D DWGs as being the chosen format for most architectural drawings for at least the rest of my career. The 3D stuff may be around, but the 2D is what people will print out and put in their archives. Actually,I know the PDFs created from the DWGs will be important, but those have reduced resolution, to the point that it starts to matter. It is always better to have the DWG.Some thing that is making the DWGs less important, in perhaps in the field of machine design. This is where the 3D model is really very important, because it may never have been fully dimensioned on a 2D output. The 3D model is what drives the machining of the part. But, the 3D models don't really have a standard way to store their data. There are a few interchangeable formats, but they tend to have their limitations, and loose a lot of the necessary data. E.g. what non-proprietary format (or commonly reverse-engineered one) really keeps the information about hole threads? So, the 3D world is still not settled on a universal data format that can be expected to be in use several decades in the future.I know there are architectural related data formats that store more than just 2D drawings. But, the generic DWG format rules the nest. Proprietary data formats housed inside of the DWG format should be assumed to be short-term data, that becomes useless in a decade or so.Please tell me if I am wrong about the above. I don't really have any experience with any of the specialized architectural packages. So, in that regards I am speculating in some ignorance. But, that proprietary data that is housed in the DWG files, don't seem to be showing up in drawings that I get from customers.-Joe0
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I feel that the industry has been at the 3D level for some time now. When I speak to others in the industry, I feel so far behind. Scary... While I still produce very detailed HVAC shop drawings in 2D format, I still get requests for 3D. Revit seems to be a growing force in the industry as well, but I am doing whatever I can to resist it. From what I have seen in my research so far, AutoDesk are delusional with their pricing and claim to the industry. A lot of other software companies exist and are (in my opinion) creeping up behind AutoDesk with very good alternatives, even alternatives to Revit. I am just over AutoDesk and cannot get away from them fast enough.
With regards to 3D HVAC drawings, I have used AutoCad MEP before. I am not proficient in 3D yet, but people I know in the USA are and it seems to be a lot better and faster than the 2D option. With section and detail views, these are already done due to how you do the drafting. It is just a matter to selecting the viewing plane and the section is created. I also think that as time goes by, all these other competitors to AutoDesk will develop and create ways to work around Revit and may even beat AutoDesk at their own game.
It is a little alarming that nobody really has any solutions with Bricsad and detailed HVAC Shop Drawings in 3D though. I was hoping someone had a plan on what to use. I spoke with someone about Mech-Q, but am not sure it will be made to suit the Australian, UK and NZ market. My trial of Mech-Q was good, but it is very much based on the US system. Things like cushion head boxes (plenums) at grilles and diffusers are not available and so on. One of the other issues I had with Mech-Q was the layer and line settings. In Mech-Q, when you draft a square to round transition, the fold lines are all set on the same layer as the transition. This means that when you plot, there is no contrast and the drawings look terrible. In 2D, you can set the detail lines in a different color and then the square to round transition looks detailed and as it should with the heavier outside line with the thinner lines representing the fold lines.
I am still battling with what to use with Bricsad. Looks like it is coming down to me just trialing various software to see what works... It would have been great to speak to someone that has some answers though. Even my local BricsCad retailer has no idea, so this doesn't fill me with confidence either.0 -
Sorry I don't have knowledge of any 'packages'.
I saw an animation of one based on Cadence some years ago, but drawing duct and fittings was never my main problem and 2d output in .dwg was my first priority.
It cost as much as Acad, before the 'special offers'.
I suspect consultants here push Revit because they can get the architectural model in that format.
That, and/or the contracts requiring it are very often apartments and hotels which have monopolised our local industry lately.
Archicad and revit are the two main architectural 3d rivals.
Consultants' requirements or enhancement priorities aren't quite the same as ours, but however automated 3d duct drawing becomes we still need a 3d building.0 -
I feel that the industry has been at the 3D level for some time now. ...snip... it. From what I have seen in my research so far, AutoDesk are delusional with their pricing and claim to the industry. A lot of other software companies exist and are (in my opinion) creeping up behind AutoDesk with very good alternatives, even alternatives to Revit. ..snip... I also think that as time goes by, all these other competitors to AutoDesk will develop and create ways to work around Revit and may even beat AutoDesk at their own game.For Revit to truly take over as an industry standard, there needs to be a low-cost alternative to AutoDesk's software that is completely compatible. Cheaper alternatives are needed, but if those alternatives are in a different format, you will just end up with a fractured industry without a standard. I would be hesitant to put thousands of man-hours into a project, with so much of that effort invested into a proprietary data format. And Autodesk's end of perpetual licenses just makes it worse for their format. We can't depend upon a single separate company to stay in business for us to be able to use the project data. An alternative is for a company like Autodesk to increase their rental prices significantly and get away with it, because they can hold our data for ransom. The reverse engineering of the 2D Dwg format by many companies, has made it an industry standard, so we can depend on being to use or project data without needing AutoDesk.So, I think your fears about being left behind in the 3D modeling world is overblown. 2D will continue to dominate for a long time, and perhaps forever for many industries.-Joe0
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My main concern is missing out on contracts requiring rvt format.
Apparently autode$k have made translation between dwg and rvt a priority and it's being put around that you kind of need both.
BIM is part of the bait, despite that other software such as Bricscad can manage that.
But after 25 years I still deal with people who either can't tell the difference between pdf and dwg, or won't share the dwg, and routinely lose paper and electronic as constructed documentation.
It would be great if pdf could be the universal format, but probably impractical.
I have seen pdf 3d models which appear to be as viewable as in their original format.0 -
So, I think your fears about being left behind in the 3D modeling world is overblown. 2D will continue to dominate for a long time, and perhaps forever for many industries.-Joe
I really do appreciate the conversation regarding this topic, but I am afraid that I have to disagree with this. I have several contacts in the USA who are HVAC shop drafters and everyone of them drafts in 3D and have done so for about 10 years. Also, if you look at truss or steel shop drawings, these are always in 3D. I believe that I am also seeing more and more fire and plumbing in 3D. A lot of the industry is going to Revit and BIM, so they are drawing in this environment. The beauty of this is that the Revit files can be converted to 3D Cad and I then just overlay. The industry is fast tracking toward 3D. I am seeing this, so I am very certain of it. I recently completed a project in 2D where the plant room was complicated. I was asked to provide 3D views. I also have been (what I consider) looked down on for not providing 3D models on other projects. It is all happening and I feel that for me, I have stretched out 2D for as long as I can. I believe that if I do not change over, then I will lose work and be left in the dust.
On a positive note, from what I have seen with my US counterparts drafting in 3D, it looks like a faster and easier way to go. Just a shame that the US standards do not match the British and Australian standards.
I will keep looking... Thanks again.0 -
I am not in a position to do an accurate judgement of what is happening nationally. My experience is mostly south Florida in the US, and also the South American market, where we also do a lot of work. However, I have noticed that CAD programs tend to have regions and industries where they are more common. Locally, for 3D parametric CAD, Pro-Engineer had dominance for many years. Though, over the last decade, other programs have taken a larger share. So, I don't know the current status of who has market share for CAD programs.Once a company, or industry, gets started with one CAD program, it really takes a lot of effort to change. Your legacy of older drawings, blocks, customization, and skills are a very valuable thing and it takes a lot of motivation to decided to abandon that in favor of another CAD program.I suspect that one of the things that help the trend towards 3D modeling, is the maturing of utilities that automate a lot of the work. Otherwise, 3D modeling takes too much time. And to get back to the topic of this thread, the HVAC seems to be lagging behind some of the other industries in obtaining those 3D tools.Personally, today I am doing a lot of editing of an isometric piping diagram, and then doing all the same edits on the 2D plan version of the same system. I know there are tools for designing both at the same time. But, an isometric drawing is often not an exact representation of the real-world dimensions, because you often need to shift some of the lines to prevent some parts from overlapping others. So this may complicate the process and make creating a utility to automate more of the process more difficult. I don't really know that industry well, but I have never received from a vendor anything but a 2D DWG file of the isometric and plan views.CAD programs, in general, have become cheaper. CAD systems that used to cost in the 10's of thousands of dollars, and ran on computers that cost 10's of thousands are pretty much extinct. Dassault has even made their basic 2D drafting program free for anyone, and of course BricsCAD is much more functional, and still a fraction of what AutoCAD cost. But, I suspect the main force that made much of that happen is all the competition to make use of the DWG format. This statement is definitely speculative on my part. But, I think that without a standard that everyone wants to use, there does not seem to be as much successful competition. Years ago, there certainly were low-cost CAD programs, using their own data format, but they eventually had to switch to DWG format (or at least be able to import/export it successfully) to stay competitive. The lack of a common standard on how to store all the data for HVAC work, has hindered this competition.Though, I can see that perhaps the HVAC industry will eventually accelerate towards the same end state that 2D CAD is at now. I.e. lower cost, and more universal 3D.-Joe0
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I am grateful for any conversation that might help with this issue.
I seriously don't know how to negotiate it.0 -
I have been reading some of the comments coming through and feel the frustration expressed in them. I have always wanted to ride my bicycle on the back wheel and often dream that I can do it with ease only to wake up the next morning disappointed! It was a similar experience with drawing in 3d. Fortunately I spent a couple of months in a large building contractors office here in Sydney and witnessed the benefits of using 3d first hand. Shortly thereafter we secured a job designing a coal washery in Queensland and I made the decision to complete at least part of this design in 3d. It was a turbulent few months using BricsCAD 14 which had made a push to improve the 3d tools, however it was a major success and we are now firmly converted.We did look at 3rd party applications to do the structural connections, pipe fittings etc. but have slowly moved away from using these as our capabilities have improved - so we are pretty much using pure BricsCAD. I am sure there must be faster ways, however the need has not pressed. We are pretty much modelling everything in 3d - even buried services on a road widening exercise!With moving into the 3d realm we have discovered the following benefits:
- We can 3d Print should the need arise;
- We can download 3d library items available off the internet (pumps, sieve bends, centrifuges etc etc).
- We have moved into rendering and lighting - all basically available in BricsCAD (but totally underutilised);
- We can now merge output from our digital terrain modelling software to the benefit of our Clients;
- Adobe's recent moves to allow its Adobe Reader to very effectively manipulate 3D-PDF files allows us to send 3d models to Clients - we get fast and more informed feedback, which benefits the job (and impresses the Client).
- Being comfortable drafting in 3d allows us to realise the benefits of BIM.
- It allows you to take on jobs that others may be less comfortable doing.
Just make the move on one of your jobs - it is always good to do it with several others on the team so you can share ideas. Just get on that bike and "pop a wheelie"!Alan0 -
Thanks Alan, a much appreciated encouragement.
I hear what you are saying Joe about the various Cad systems, but I think as alternatives like ProgeCAD, AviCAD and BricsCAD all develop, they are so compatible with AutoCad that you can keep things like your block library. I am yet to try BricsCAD, but I know that ProgeCAD and AviCAD are virtually the same as AutoCad and I have used the different software to open and work on projects started in AutoCad. Kind of surprises me why more people are not fleeing AutoDesk. Where I am, AutoDesk products are a total rip-off and what they charge is only a subscription. I hope BricsCAD never ever go the same way as AutoDesk.
I am definitely switching, but at the moment I am kind of stuck as I need something to equal AutoCad MEP. I need to have the options for duct fittings etc. I do not think I can create 3D blocks for every piece of duct etc. Drafting equipment blocks would be ok if I am not able to source them from suppliers or manufacturers. If BricsCAD had an exact MEP (mechanical, electrical, plumbing) alternative, that would be fantastic and all problems solved.0 -
I just saw this, but it is for Electrical -
https://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=https://www.bricsys.com/applications/a/?app=891&apploc=1542&prev=search0 -
A quick update...
I attempted to trial AutoFluid by TraceoCad. After contacting the company, they set up a trial period and sent me a download link. I downloaded the program and gave it a go. Some of the menu was still in French, so a bit hard to understand. The program has potential, but I seemed to hit a wall with it's abilities for what I needed. I contacted the program Developers to ask for some assistance as well as ask some questions. They seemed hard to work with and really went over the top with wanting to know ALL my details. When I expressed invasion of privacy and asked why I needed to give such information when most others do not, they just dropped me like a hot potato. I have moved on and do not consider AutoFluid an option for me.
I just did not appreciate their manner and how they dealt with me.0 -
They seemed hard to work with and really went over the top with wanting to know ALL my details. When I expressed invasion of privacy and asked why I needed to give such information when most others do not, they just dropped me like a hot potato.When I encountered a sales dept that wanted WAY too much info, I dropped THEM like a hot potato. Also, if a vendor automatically puts me on their weekly list to send spam messages, they received similar treatment.-Joe0
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@Stevo and Joe:
How does your company deal with anonymous 'clients'? How much time do you invest, how much information do you provide when, let's say, all you have is a first name and some untraceable e-mail address?0 -
@ Roy
I have trialed various software over the years (including BricsCad) and nobody has demanded information in the way that AutoFluid (TraceoCad) has. I found the experience quite extraordinary and it really soured my opinion. I was not being anonymous with AutoFluid (TraceoCad). My email address was legitimate, but when they came at me demanding to know all these details, I just felt it was a complete invasion of my privacy. I was only trialing their software and had some questions about some issues that I was having with getting it to do what I needed. The moment I refused to disclose all these details, they shutdown and absolutely refused to answer any questions.
For a comparison, another program that I am looking at currently is a trial version and I am talking to the program developer about what it can do and possible customization. I am about 99% certain that I will go with this program. They have proven themselves to me with their conduct and willingness to help with my questions. Once I am set up, you can bet that I will share my experience and let people know about the program.
How does my company deal with anonymous "clients"? We answer their questions to a point where they are satisfied. Sure, some of these situations are people just kicking the tyres, but that is life. Most of the time when people come with questions, the questions are all similar. This is where you can set up an FAQ section, or reply with your standard response. Not a lot of time is invested with doing it this way. I feel that you still need to treat people with respect and dignity.0 -
I am grateful for any conversation that might help with this issue.
I seriously don't know how to negotiate it.
@John
I think I have found a program and am currently talking to the developer about it's compatibility with BricsCad. If this proves successful (and I am very optimistic), I will pass on details so that you can trial it also.0 -
When I encountered a sales dept that wanted WAY too much info, I dropped THEM like a hot potato. Also, if a vendor automatically puts me on their weekly list to send spam messages, they received similar treatment.-Joe
@Joe
I agree. I cannot understand why they require such information. An even bigger question... When they receive all your information and details, what do they do with it?0 -
Roy, since any quoting we do requires a fair amount of work, it is important to take some steps so that we can feel reasonable that it is not a competetor just using us to help him design for his customer. So, we do at least, need to know that the e-mail and phone number is valid. This way a competetor can only get away with that trick a couple of times.But, when I am shopping on the internet, for what should be stock items, the most a vendor might get from me is a yahoo e-mail address. The yahoo address, helps protect my company e-mail from getting flodded with spam and even helps against viruses, since the more people that have your address, the more likely one of them will get infected and then send it to you. The Yahoo address gets abandoned, and a new one created, as soon as the 1st one starts getting filled with spam.I also got a Google Voice phone number. Which I also plan on abandoning eventually. I don't want most of them to get our physical address or phone number, because we already get A LOT of junk mail and phone calls.Once I truely plan on doing business with a vendor, then I disclose my business e-mail and other info. I NEVER disclose info not related to our transaction. They have asked for things like the name of the company owner, $ of sales per year, etc. When they start down that road, I start to think they have something underhanded in mind, or even illegal.-Joe0
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Thanks @Stevo, I like to keep up with where it's going.
The industry here is only interested in contracts done in either dwg or Revit, at the same time projects and profits are in a serious downturn.0 -
@ John
I hear you... For me, I am not planning to go the Revit route... Yet anyway... I dislike Revit and I dislike AutoDesk's control over the market.
So far, I believe BricsCad is a great viable alternative. It will open and work with .dwg files previously completed in AutoCad. From a Cad perspective, I think it will be fine.
On the Revit front... I hope to goodness that BricsCad keep developing an alternative for this also.
I will let you know how I go with the add on program I have found. Looks promising, drafts in both 2D and 3D HVAC with real world fittings.0 -
I totally agree.0
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That would be the ultimate solution but various patents to avoid.
1) parametric 3D design.
2) BIM support ok done
3) Open/save to Revit native format sure no import and export.
But many hurdles to take.0
This discussion has been closed.