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BIM slab

Todays question,
I've seen it recomended to create floors using a slab assigned with a composition rather than separate solids, my question is how does that work when floor finishes are different, I found a posthttps://forum.bricsys.com/discussion/33169/bim-windows#latest that showed how the variuos composition ply's can be individually altered in shape, but in a building that has various floor finishes ie carpet 6mm, tile 10mm, stone in common hallways 20mm what is the best approach as they finish at the same top level so the screed has to vary in thickness. These areas are broken up by walls that would extended down to structural concrete but I doubt that the individual areas of a ply remaining could have a varying thickness, but then you have things like a kitchen/diner that is partially tiled or a matwel behind the front door. Logically that says that individual solids have to be used, I was just trying to figure out the best way of achieving that. Maybe a concrete slab with a composite on top of that for the different floor finishes (acoustic insulation, screed, tile, etc)

Comments

  • Yes, so many questions.
    Until now I have to think - yes - 2 separate Slabs.

  • " Maybe a concrete slab with a composite on top of that for the different floor finishes (acoustic insulation, screed, tile, etc)"

    When in doubt about such issue, I tend to ask myself: "How will it be realized on site?" and then proceed likewise to structure my cad model. So far that approach has given quite satisfactory results.

    So to answer your question: Yes, that is how I would proceed, a large concrete slab with smaller composite slabs on top for each different floor finishing.

  • edited January 11

    Thank you so much for answering Hans.
    You can't imagine how happy I am that you finally gave your official ok :smile:

    Going vertical it gets a bit more difficult I think.
    Starting with a simple example, a multi Story Concrete Building.
    A base Slab will be cast. After that the Walls will be cast on top of the Slab.
    Next Slab, next Walls on top and so on.
    So the structural elements only and finally someone will mount the insulation
    an exterior wall finish package. Similar like the finish floor packages which
    will come later.

    But this does not match with Window and Door insertion which insert in and
    cut one solid only. So Walls should be one single solid with multi ply composition.

    And as the Wall's insulation ply should finally also cover the Slab,
    does it matter if we set
    a) our Wall Solids on top of the Slabs or
    b) Wall on top of previous Wall and stop with the Slab at exterior Walls
    inner side

  • Thanks once more Michael and Hans,
    Your insights are really welcome, I'm starting to figure out where things are, and how the help files work. I'm happy how things are coming together on the modelling side, I just need to figure out the best work flows and how best to move around and get at things in the model. Now it's time to start looking at adding BIM data, and more importantly getting that information out of the drawing.

  • Maybe the nice "Villa" is needed in a V18 LOD version.

  • Where is the Villa?

  • edited January 12

    It was part of the V16 BIM Tutorials.
    You can find some mirrored versions by a youtube search.
    Some still contain the links to download each steps geometry.

    As it looks, Bricsys somehow "cleaned up" its Tutorial Videos a bit
    when they dumped Bricscad TV.
    It didn't like much how the Villa Videos were done at that time as they
    are were quite fast, condenced and in a way like "type this then this ...."
    without explaining what to do and especially because not explaining
    what and why this way and not another way !
    But I watched them (locally) again with V18 release and they are quite
    important because each single step covers a special function you would
    not expect or learn elsewhere that it even exists e.g. for me :
    Setting the "Elevation" Z value in Property Panel when nothing is selected.

    So not really for beginners but to refresh your knowledge if you already
    have some experience.

  • E.G. here :
    http://addadvantage.in/10-steps-bim-tutorial/

    The File downloads appear inside the Videos.

  • Sorry to hijack your thread.

    What I meant is that using separate Slabs for Structure and Finish
    is very similar to Dividing Wall Solids into Structural and Insulation/Cover.
    Which is not an option in most BIM applications in general.

    I really like that Bricscad treats 3D's equally and does not prefer XY over
    restricting vertical XZ and YZ planes like most other BIM solutions do.

    Slabs do not very differ from Walls. Slabs also may require openings
    which may be also automatically created by Insertion Objects similar
    to Windows and Doors that can be assigned to a single Solid only.

    Maybe in the future we will get some more BIM Tools that will do such
    interactions. Maybe not usual parametric but stupid tools, more
    Bricscad AI like.
    I think of tools to create Railings, or in this case Stairs that will cut openings
    in in Slabs automatically like Windows do in Walls.
    And such a Floor Package may hinder at the end.

    So we have to predict the same problems and find solutions in both,
    Wall and Slabs situations in a similar manner :
    When each room has a different Wall Finish (plaster/paint/wood panels/...),
    should I create a large amount of Wall Compositions of nearly the same
    Wall type, just to cover all situations
    or
    do I better separate these plies by extra Solids, with the problem of recreating
    openings manually without any linking in case of later changes.

    Or will there be a better solution like transfering info and control over to
    Space Objects ?
    Or kind of Compositions with flexible Plies ?

  • @Michael Mayer said:

    Maybe in the future we will get some more BIM Tools that will do such
    interactions. Maybe not usual parametric but stupid tools, more
    Bricscad AI like.
    I think of tools to create Railings, or in this case Stairs that will cut openings
    in in Slabs automatically like Windows do in Walls.

    Stair Tool ?
    I expect Bricscad more to do a complete AI Stair Case Tool of course
    :smile:

  • @Michael Mayer said:
    Sorry to hijack your thread.

    No worries this is good stuff, and thanks for the link, I have noticed a couple of dead links in the Bricsys Blogs, that at least sound as though they would have had interesting content.

  • @Michael said: Going vertical it gets a bit more difficult I think.
    Starting with a simple example, a multi Story Concrete Building.
    A base Slab will be cast. After that the Walls will be cast on top of the Slab. Next Slab, next Walls on top and so on.
    So the structural elements only and finally someone will mount the insulation and exterior wall finish package.
    Similar like the finish floor packages which will come later.

    But this does not match with Window and Door insertion which insert in and cut one solid only.
    So Walls should be one single solid with multi ply composition.

    At present it is indeed cumbersome to use inserts to cut through more than a single multi-ply solid, be it a wall, floor or roof. We have plans to make this possible, but, for the time being, it is better to strive for a single multi-ply solid approach.

    Another factor that influences how to model a building, is how you want to the Quantity take-off to be structured.
    E.g. do you prefer to measure quantities per floor, or do you prefer that e.g. an exterior wall that spans multiple floors is reported as a single entity? My (personal) preference is to measure per floor, so that is also how I model. For larger buildings it also can be handy to use one file per floor.

    So, for the example concrete building you described, I would model the base slab, place the ground-floor walls on top of it, next slab, first floor walls, and so on. The load-bearing ply of the multi-ply wall sits on top of the floor slab and extends to the bottom of the slab above.
    The insulation and exterior finish plies are not interrupted by the slabs and reach to meet the insulation and finish plies of the next floor.

    To avoid that the generated facade drawings contain undesired horizontal 'bands' per floor, switch On the 'Union Section' property of the Material used for the outermost ply. This flag not only allows to avoid undesired dividing miter lines for e.g. floor plan walls, but also to avoid undesired dividing lines in facades. Note: this 'union' operation comes at a cost, so it's better to only switch it On when actually wanted.

    Have a nice weekend!

  • edited January 12

    @Hans De Backer said:

    At present it is indeed cumbersome to use inserts to cut through more than a single multi-ply solid, be it a wall, floor or roof. We have plans to make this possible, but, for the time being, it is better to strive for a single multi-ply solid approach.

    I am really happy to read this :)
    At least for now, I came to the conclusion that cutting through more elements
    can be an important advantage in the future. (I may not overview this far enough)
    And I think that I have already seen such a system. I think it was FormZ's,
    what they call, BIM light.
    And when I saw V16 for the first time and set that mysterious cut volume layer
    visible and saw the 1 m depth red booleans, I instantly thought, wow, so cool,
    so simple, they just cut through everything :)
    (Coming from my complex but restricted BIM)

    And today I thought, maybe just no one tried before to extend a Window's
    cut volume and check what happens. So I tried today and see it doesn't cut
    through more than one solid indeed ;)

    But of course I will go Single Multi Ply Solids for now.

    Another factor that influences how to model a building, is how you want to the Quantity take-off to be structured.
    E.g. do you prefer to measure quantities per floor, or do you prefer that e.g. an exterior wall that spans multiple floors is reported as a single entity? My (personal) preference is to measure per floor, so that is also how I model. For larger buildings it also can be handy to use one file per floor.

    Didn't even think about that so far. Interesting.

    So, for the example concrete building you described, I would model the base slab, place the ground-floor walls on top of it, next slab, first floor walls, and so on. The load-bearing ply of the multi-ply wall sits on top of the floor slab and extends to the bottom of the slab above.
    The insulation and exterior finish plies are not interrupted by the slabs and reach to meet the insulation and finish plies of the next floor.

    Not sure If I got that right.
    If I have flush "Single" multi ply Solids.
    In both cases I have to finally cut one of the Solids partly at a ply level.

    If I put Walls on Slabs, I have to pull the insulation ply of the Wall down over
    the Slab which will finally cut, at least a single part of that Slabs boundary to
    free space for the insulation thickness.
    If I put Walls on Walls and Slab inside, I will need to pull out the Slab('s ply)
    and cut the structure ply of the Wall.
    (Or just do nothing if both Structural Plies are identical opposed to
    Concrete Slab vs Masonry situation)

    I asked about which way may be better as these complex ply to ply connections
    were very tedious to heal in case of needed changes in connections.
    And not included in my BIMSUGGEST roboter.

    Or am I totally wrong here.

    To avoid that the generated facade drawings contain undesired horizontal 'bands' per floor, switch On the 'Union Section' property of the Material used for the outermost ply. This flag not only allows to avoid undesired dividing miter lines for e.g. floor plan walls, but also to avoid undesired dividing lines in facades. Note: this 'union' operation comes at a cost, so it's better to only switch it On when actually wanted.

    Have a nice weekend!

    Very good Tip !

    And this is another question.
    In my current BIM it simply isn't practical to use Objects that exceed more than
    one Story and also split levels not really doable.
    In Bricscad it doesn't look like a big problem.
    Why not just make single Exterior Walls and Stair Case Cores over the whole
    Building Height.
    In VW this would take my ability of independent Story visibility and such things,
    but in Bricscad I don't have that either and it doesn't interfere if I use Sections
    with depth for that.
    Do I miss anything important that would bring me in a dead end street later ?

  • I've only been using the program for a week, so I'm not really qualified to speak on how it works best, but using separate files would seem odd, from what I saw at the conference I would have thought that Bricscad could handle the size of the file without problem. And one of the most impressive features I have seen so far is BIMsuggest which would then obviously need to run multiple times. Modeling one floor at a time is much easier to move around but BIMsuggest looks so powerful to cut down on repeating tasks.
    I work exclusively on helping to create tenders and it varies per project as to how quantities need calculating and grouping, sometimes by building other times by floor or even groups of floors then again even by departments on a floor there is not set method. The only fixed thing is we have to take the information that is supplied by clients and as accurately and as quickly as possible turn that into quantities, and if at this stage we can create documentation that can also be used throughout the life of the contract and hopefully on into the future building management

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