Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Compositions - Display ON/OFF - Wall Directions

I am not 100% happy about the way the Compositions work.
(Assignment and Visibility).

1.
The way Bricscad chooses Wall Directions by default, (inner/outer side),
is still pretty random for my purposes.
I could live much better with a simple strict rule, like, Walls outer side
will be always "left" along drawing axis. So you know you have to draw your
Walls in a clockwise manner - and if you need to draw it from right to left,
you will know that means the Wall is flipped and you have to flip
it back manually.
This is not my main issue, but it just means that Wall's Directions are
very likely flipped in the wrong way, which is the start situation when
talking about Compositions.

2.
When assigning a Composition, that may mean that the Wall Thickness
has to change, it is very nice (!) that there is now the Highlighting of
Wall's Face that the Thicken Modification will originate from
(or to control in which direction the wall will extend)
plus the Flip Icons to change that "direction".
This feature is very important and I make great use of it.
(As there is #1. situation described above)
Unfortunately that will work only if "Display Composition" is OFF.

3.
On the other hand, once you applied/changed your Compositions,
to be able to see/check Compositions Directions,
you will need "Display Composition" to be ON again.
I find it pretty tedious to switch "Display Composition" the way it is
(Selection loss, tedious Selection of related objects using
"Display Composition", ...)
Therefore, my main point :
I think there needs to be a "global", easy accessible,
"Display Composition" Switch
(While it can be argued if the current local setting needs to stay to
allow selective overwriting the global "Display Composition")
I want to either work in a low LOD workflow with Display OFF for
all elements or in a high LOD detail workflow whith Display ON
but very seldom in a mixture between ON+OFF elements anyway.
And I would like to switch that fast and offen so see it as a View
Mode switch - like between BIM and Modeling View Mode.
Or better,
I think "displaying" Compositions (to better read your Model) and
"modeling" at Compositions Detail Level,
are 2 completely separate things.
I often want to see my Compositions to check if Wall directions are
accurate and such things, although I do'tn not want to edit Objects
at Detail Level, at the same time, at all.

4.
It looks like all my Walls,
after changing (thickness by) Composition with the use of the
initial origin Face change option (as in #2.)
the Composition Plies are flipped - and I need to BIMFLIP again.
(Which fortunately only mirrors the Plies but keeps the Wall's location)
a)
First I thought about Bricscad using another convention about how Plies
needing to be stacked in a Composition and I would do it wrong but
I see that also Bricscad Composition Templates use the upper side
of the Plies List as the Walls outer side.
So if there is a connection between Wall's overall Directions and
Composition's ply directions, which I think should be,
in my opinion, that linking currently works flipped.
b)
About the Walls Composition usage in practice.
Normally you may start BIM at a lower LOD, like single Ply Compositions.
So at the beginning, Compositions my be just applied for better Wall
sorting and differentiating purposes, while LOD and Compositions
complexity may arise later.
That is when changes in Wall's Thicknesses and the need to control
the center from which the change in thickness expands.
(Otherwise you would need to relocate the Walls manually)
And that will mostly not concern interior Walls, as being mostly still
single-ply, "symmetric" Compositions or even the need to expand
from the Wall's middle Axis (which currently is not possible).
So it is mainly about exterior Walls, that may once have been single-ply
and now get an Insulation package.
In this common case,
I think the Wall should expand from the structural core - so (simplified)
originating from the Walls inner side.
So to make my point :
If I get it right, Bricscad prefers by default the outer Face, to expand
from, which I think is wrong or flipped.
What I stated in #4. a)

5.
Beside my points above,
nevertheless, as long as there is no more detailed control when changing
Elements compositions, like Axis control left/middle/right + choosing from
which Ply, there will happen many situations when Walls need to be
relocated manually.
In Apps where I have such Controls, I change elements Compositions
very frequently.
Or I just need to change my Compositions/Styles, which does open these
Controls, as being mandatory when Compositions Changes cause also
changes in thicknesses.

6.
I seem to have problems with Walls being shorter than their widths.
(BIMCONNECT failing, Compositions flipped 90°)
I'm not 100% sure about that,
it may be that I did not use Polysolid to model these combinations, which
form kind of a Z-path (which Polysolid does correctly)
but it may also be that these "too short" Walls flipped their direction by 90°
by itself, after applying Compositions to them or when BIMIFYING.
Nevertheless, also trying to rotate them correctly later, I am not able to
BIMCONNECT them, although that geometrically would be possible.

7.
Currently assigning Compositions to "rounded" Walls is pretty useless.
Even rounded Walls itself (and even Arcs in Polylines for Slab Extrusions)
cause nothing but problems for me (on Mac ?)
(Rejecting BIMCONNECT with other Walls, Inaccurate Thickness Display,
inability/corruption to BIMDRAG or PUSHPULL the curved Face,
lagging and crashing even when trying to BIMDRAG/PUSHPULL one of their
"non-rounded" Faces, ...)
So as long as that is the case, I would even prefer to prohibit rounded Walls
completely.
Better automatically convert these Ars into edgy n-Gons with a reasonable
curve resolution - without cluttering the amount of Wall numbers by keeping
these combined in any way as a single Wall.

Comments

  • The way Bricscad chooses Wall Directions by default, (inner/outer side), is still pretty random for my purposes. I could live much better with a simple strict rule, like, Walls outer side will be always "left" along drawing axis.

    In the current version, the rule to detect the reference side is the outmost side face looking from the model extents center point. This detected composition direction will indeed not be always correct, eg in case of two separate buildings, concave shapes, etc. The user will still be able to flip the chosen reference side, or manually select another reference face.

    Unfortunately that will work only if "Display Composition" is OFF.

    and

    It looks like all my Walls, after changing (thickness by) Composition with the use of the initial origin Face change option (as in #2.) the Composition Plies are flipped - and I need to BIMFLIP again.

    Unfortunately I cannot really reproduce this behavior; it is recommended to file a support request for further investigation.

    If I get it right, Bricscad prefers by default the outer Face, to expand from, which I think is wrong or flipped.

    Indeed, you are right: the reference side (chosen during composition attachment) corresponds to the exterior side of the composition.

    I seem to have problems with Walls being shorter than their widths. (BIMCONNECT failing, Compositions flipped 90°)

    For these commands, the side faces of the walls are detected on-the-fly as the largest parallel opposing faces. So in case of walls being shorter than their widths, the composition could be flipped 90°. We are looking to improve this functionality in an upcoming Bricscad BIM version, by allowing the user to manually select a reference face (and opposing face in case of non parallel sides).

    Thanks a lot for the other feedback and suggestions!

  • Thanks Tiemen,

    In the current version, the rule to detect the reference side is the outmost side face looking from the model extents center point. This detected composition direction will indeed not be always correct ...

    Yes, this way, as soon as any outer Wall's outer side points to that center,
    it will be wrong sided.
    It is better than arbitrary positioning Wall Sides as more than 50% of Walls
    will be correct but in worst scenarios not so much better for anything beside
    rectangular shaped Buildings.
    Like an L/T/H/... -shaped Building or the onion skinned Pentagon.
    That is why I think a predictable simple and reliable rule would give the control
    and responsibility back to the user while creation.

    Or maybe the AI should recognize connected Walls like a polyline path and
    count their connection's angles to find the more framed inner side.
    But even then there would be cases, like when the outer Walls get interrupted
    by Curtain Wall segments or such, where the framed side should be the
    outer side instead.
    .

    Unfortunately I cannot really reproduce this behavior; it is recommended to file a support request for further investigation.
    Indeed, you are right: the reference side (chosen during composition attachment) corresponds to the exterior side of the composition.

    It is just about the definition of the origin for potential thickness change when
    Composition assignment (= currently from outer side).
    That needs me to flip all Walls first, to get that origin to their inner side,
    so that when changing from a 1 ply Wall (core) to a 2ply Wall (core+insulation),
    the additional thickness by insulation extends to the outer side of the building
    and the core will stay on its axis.
    So I intentionally have to flip the Walls side just to keep their alignment when
    changing Composition. But for the Composition the Wall is still flipped and
    I have to revert my Walls again.

    I think changing Wall Compositions can happen quite regularly while
    planning phase and it is good to have easy control where over alignment.

  • I agree on display composition. It is an annoyance to have to change the display state at an entity level. This also impacts on pulling through the display state when you xref the model. I think an override option similar to how ATTDISP (ATTMODE) works with attributes would be useful. e.g. BIMCOMPDISP command would allow the user to set the display composition to 3 states:
    0 = OFF. Don't display compositions.
    1 = NORMAL. Display composition based on entity setting.
    2 = ON. Display compositions.

    Within composition definitions it would be useful to be able to define a datum that the composition is defined about. In NZ timber frame buildings are
    defined around the external face of the timber frame. The external cladding system (a sub composition) could take multiple forms, and change from one external wall to another. In this case using the external face as the datum doesn't work, and change to the cladding system requires you to reposition the wall.

    Regards,
    Jason Bourhill
    CAD Concepts

    BIM-CompositionDatum.jpg
    1116 x 613 - 120K
  • edited August 10

    Related discussion:
    https://forum.bricsys.com/discussion/33161/bimattachcomposition

    One of the core ideas of BricsCAD BIM, AFAIK, is that it does not matter how 3D solids have been created. Any tool can be used to create a wall. Some of the ideas proposed here conflict with that concept.

  • One of the core ideas of BricsCAD BIM, AFAIK, is that it does not matter how 3D solids have been created. Any tool can be used to create a wall.

    That is cool.
    And as I recently learned, mainly intended for imported geometry + BIMIFY
    (like by Shape now)
    Which is even more cool.

    However, if it turns out that there is a significant number of situations
    where the designed behavior might not help - not so cool.
    (Like my "short" walls direction detection failing is very unlikely and worth to workaround by singly-ply Solids. While Wall Auto Direction from geometry center
    quite likely to fail and maybe worth to rethink)

    So at the beginning there is any Solid, only once it's defined as a Wall,
    it is a Wall and a BIM Wall, in my opinion should have some parametric abilities
    for control and editing from the Properties Panel.
    (As long as no Composition applied, which with its detail edits could interfere)

    I would be very happy for :
    - all time showing Wall direction or orientation, at least when selected
    (as a global switchable Viewport overlay ?)
    - direction/orientation switch from PP
    (+90° switch for "short" Walls ?)
    - Editable Wall width > from inner/center/outer side
    (To control that before applying a Composition will force that arbitrarily)
    - Editable Wall Height
    - Editable Wall Base Height
    (Best with an option to link+offset from a Story and show editable "world" height)

  • BTW,
    Wall direction signaling and easy changing could also make
    Door and Window insertion easier and applicable from Top View.
    Wall direction automatically determines Windows inner/outer side,
    when a Door/Window Height+Base Height (from Wall or From Story ?)
    would eliminate that repeating user input and allow easy modifying
    later.

Sign In or Register to comment.
Origami
Origami is the Japanese word for paper folding. ORI means to fold and KAMI means paper and involves the creation of paper forms usually entirely by folding.

Powered by VanillaForums, Designed by Steam