Apple Silicon



  • :)

    Everyone who bought something M1 is playing with it .... and so far all are very happy.
    So far Bricscad was the only Pro App I heard crashing.
    But I am not sure if that is even related to M1 Rosetta or just some boring Big Sur issue.

    Pity that larger Files won't open,
    as I would be so curious, if the same App with the same File,
    under Apple Silicon and RAM, will use the same amount of RAM as used on Intel Macs
    or even a bit less.
    And if would be a real problem if you need more RAM than you have.

    Like here was stated that 16 GB of M1 RAM behave more like 32 GB RAM on the
    Intel equivalent MacBook Pro :

    Although lowest ultra portable class machines so far, even these are so impressing.

  • Bricscad may just have some very simple problem that can easily be fixed. It wont open template files so not sure what the hangup is. I do not think it has anything to do with file size. I tried some 400 kb files and it crashes. New works sometimes and I can start drawing. I inserted one of the drawings that crashed into the new drawing and it worked. Zooming behaves poorly though so not sure what's going on.

    After watching that video I really was surprised that the 16 gig for many tests didn't make much difference. I wasn't surprised that it beat the iMac though. I thought it was just that my old 2017 iMac was showing its age but it beat a 2020. The Apple silicon iMac will be a beast!!

  • Michael Mayer
    edited November 2020

    If I interpret the benchmarks in the video correct,
    looks like there is a possibility, when you exceed you available memory,
    it will get reasonably slower but not freeze.
    Which was my experience from the past when Cinema4D exceeded physical
    memory. Other than Windows, which got just really slow with hard disks,
    OS X was just unusable in these cases, although SSD.
    Could be just a real problem with C4D or just that OS X can't work at all
    when swapping memory.

    I am not sure.
    Lightroom is well known to just get faster if there is more memory available,
    which is different from Logic Pro, which can edit a certain number of Instruments
    at a time and than refuses to do more.
    And I am not sure if it is really about RAM or somehow also CPU.

    Basically "tiled rendering" on Apple Silicon, if supported, is able to render infinite
    files or resolutions, similar to (tiled) CPU bucket Rendering.where a traditional GPU
    rendering needs enough VARM to fit the whole geometry in, if not,
    it would not render at all.

    So I would like to know, if overall and for standard projects, I would have a fast
    machine with M1 and for some special demanding projects or things like importing
    IFC, RVT and such things, it would be reasonably slower than an option with more
    RAM, GPU or CPU resources - or just not work at all.

  • Bricscad may just have some very simple problem that can easily be fixed. It wont open template files so not sure what the hangup is.

    There is a new V20.2.11-1,
    with a Big Sur fix.
    Does it work better ?

  • betazero
    edited November 2020

    downloading and will try. I actually worked for about 30 minutes today. if you keep opening it opens. like 1 out of 3 open attempts work.

    Edit - It works really well now and panning with trackpad is good again. That didn't take long :) Let me try opening a bunch more times.

  • Michael Mayer
    edited November 2020

    Does that mean you can now open all your Files ?

    The first M1 Vectorworks user was already very happy and hasn't notice any problems via Rosett2.

  • betazero
    edited November 2020
    Yes all files opening and pan working again for trackpad. I tried 4 files. Will try more in a bit. Also hitting new works so opening templates works again. Btw I was playing a game yesterday for 2 hours and it stayed cool to the touch.
  • This is great news !

    Do you have an option to check Bricscads RAM usage, of the same File,
    on both architectures ?

  • Extremely tempted to get an M1 (probably MBA) in addition to my current 2018 15" MBP i9 32 GB ram and VEGA 20 GPU with 4 GB HBM2 Ram running Catalina and V20.2.09 and V21.1.05 Beta with occasional crashes but otherwise well.
    Have no problem having 4 or 5 60MB to 200 MB models open simultaneously and on a 5K LG ultarafine at 5120x2880 and (laptop) 2880x1800 resolution, but it did choke (beach balled and then crashed) trying to import a 2.2 GB STP file. I have V20 Communicator installed BTW.
    The M1 Apple silicon runs common RAM and has a very fast SSD which may explain why it only slows a little when using RAM hungry apps.
    My current MBP hardly ever runs hot or speeds up the fan - really only when doing an update or importing a large model, but the fanless MBA just seems so capable in such a small package.
    @betazero can you tell if you are running BricsCad using Rosetta2 (Intel version) or is it a universal version or is the update V20.2.11 a universal version?? Very please to find someone is running BricsCad on an M1.
    Also are you a Beta tester - and if so have you tried V21 on the M1?

  • I think we are far from an ARM native Bricscad Version,
    it is not even stated if there will be any possible in the near future or at all.
    But I am pretty confident that it will be possible to run Bricscad via Rosetta2.
    And if the results are already promising with lowest ultra portable devices,
    I think Bricscad will also run decent with larger projects on coming more
    beefier Apple Silicon devices, although some Rosetta penalty.

  • Yea what he said. I can run games on it though and I am pretty sure they are not native yet. I would not worry about Rosetta. The only issue is in 2 years when they start phasing out Rosetta that any program that didn’t get updated to universal I’m not sure what happens then. But 2 years is a long time. Bricscad team fixed whatever bug was causing open to crash in a week so I am very confident that they will have a universal app in 2 years or way less.
  • Thanks for this. As I posted on the Big Sur forum I see this as a three issue problem:
    1 Will Bricscad run on Big Sur - it seems yes if V20.2.11 is used No on V18 & V19. V21 runs on Catalina but I am note sure about Big Sur
    2 Will Bricscad run on Apple silicon using Rosetta2 compiling the Intel version into one that runs on Apple silicon. The answer is clearly yes for V20.
    3 Has Bricscad been compiled to an ARM V8 (=AS) version yet or will be in the future? That seems to be a question still but as the answer to 2 is yes it is not a pressing issue. Probably only from V21 at the earliest, not for V20 is my guess.

  • betazero
    edited November 2020
    1 For sure it works with Big Sur.
    2 V20.2.11.1 (the extra .1 is important )works with Big Sur and M1 apple silicon
    3 no idea. I imagine v21 will just be thru Rosetta 2. It will have to be the next version that could be a universal app. Or the one after that. Unless it’s super easy and they get it into v21
  • betazero
    edited November 2020

    One thing I have not mentioned is that holy crap it turns on instantly after closing the lid then opening it. Its like a refrigerator... I kinda wonder does it turn off? Really happy that I traded in my 15" 2019 MBP for this ! I lost 2" and my girlfriend is upset but whatever :)

  • Thanks for the user comments @ betazero, that makes me even more tempted to get an M1 MBA or MBP.
    Don't need it as my 15" MBP works perfectly but do want it!
    As I have CAD on one of my 5K screen workspaces and mail etc on the 15" screen workspaces and the monitor charges the laptop via Thunderbolt (so only using one port) the 2 port 13" MBA and 13" MBP would be no problem to run at all. Have even tried the layout on my wife's 2020 Intel MBA!
    Might upset the wife :-)

  • @betazero said:
    One thing I have not mentioned is that holy crap it turns on instantly after closing the lid then opening it. Its like a refrigerator... I kinda wonder does it turn off? Really happy that I traded in my 15" 2019 MBP for this ! I lost 2" and my girlfriend is upset but whatever :)

    Gratulation to your device.

    You will have much fun with it over 1 or 2 years until there will come something
    even more impressing you may want to upgrade to.
    I vote for a 24" iMac with own Battery and Touch Screen, that you can take from the
    stand, to watch movies in bed.
    And a 30" iMac with 32 GPU und CPU cores for Pro work. But that may take some time.

    But Apples first Silicon is already that impressive that you can't ignore it and it would be
    nice and future proof to already start updating the Bricscad own Mac code to optimize for
    Mac APIs. I think that investment would help running Rosetta2 for now, and make it even
    easier to release an Apple Silicon native App, once all 3rd party Libraries are finally ready

  • betazero
    edited November 2020
    Oh for sure my iMac is the next to upgrade. I have 2 27” iMacs next to each other so hopefully the new design looks ok next to them. I will be waiting for a 27” or hopefully they goto 30”. 27” is big though I just won’t downgrade to 24”. I hope they do a lit keyboard at least. It doesn’t have to have the Touch Bar. Also the Mouse sucks and they need one you can work with. It needs to be like a full size Logitech mouse just with an apple touch.
  • I also don't understand wy we can't have lit (but beautiful) Keyboards.
    I never had a problem with an USB cable.

    I also am always looking for nice, Apple like Mice.
    I want a real middle button, not just a scroll wheel click, so I have a
    3DConnexion CADMouse. Looks OK, quite expensive.

    Beside I would take a look at Microsoft Surface Mice.
    I like the look of the original Surface Mouse, but buyers complaint
    feeling cheap and plasticky.
    Or any 5 Button Gamer Mouse. Shouldn't be as exotic as my Mad Catz 5
    Mouse, as you seldom find Mac Drivers. In this case, even without special
    driver prevents Menues from auto expanding.
    So better something common like Razor or Logitech.

  • betazero
    edited November 2020

    Yea I use a Logitech G502 but would love if Apple would stop the form over function for the mouse. Imagine if the keyboard was just a slab of glass with no real buttons...Maybe cool for a movie or display but not for real use. The Magic Mouse hurts my hand after 15 minutes... If they really want to keep the Magic Mouse that's fine but make an Apple mouse that's shaped like a Logitech mouse too and give people an option. I do not have any problem with the Apple keyboard other than it not being backlit. I think for the pro keyboard it should just be wired and put the Touch Bar and Touch ID and backlit. I like the Touch Bar and would love if programs adopted it more. Like being able to just have Osnap, Snap and Ortho there instead of a function key would awesome. No matter how hard they try to get rid of wires....You currently still need wires. I do not buy wireless mice either because when the battery starts dyeing you still have to plug it in. I have not tried the surface mouse but feel weird buying Microsoft accessories for Apple. Yea it looks kinda like a Dali version of the Magic Mouse :) Or do you mean the Surface Precision mouse? That looks very Logitechish / Microsoft / normal mouse shape.

  • Not sure about the aesthetics of the MS Mice. I could live with it.

    I just think the MS Surface keyboard looks very much ok for a PC Keyboard.
    Or looks like Apple. It has a NumBlock by default, fine.
    OK, no Backlight and Wireless. But I nearly bought it to my NZXT case.
    I went with 2 MS basic MS 7 € keyboards black and white that look ok and
    work well. And a 12 € (?) HP basic black Keyboard, which I mainly use,
    as it looks a bit like Apple simplicity and has only 2 mm key travel,
    which I prefer. OK, all black, hard to read and no back light of course.

    For Mac, I think there were some exotic Apple look a like Keyboards,
    with USB and back light.

    BTW, my Apple USB + Num Keyboard, the second,
    after I cleaned my first on a bit too humid and it failed,
    has a real Hole in the middle of the Shift Key. Which came pretty quickly
    at the beginning and gets larger year over year.
    If Steve Jobs only could see it.

  • Wow never had an issue like that before. You gotta stop cleaning them with acid :) I have had many Apple keyboards too. I remember one of my co-workers used windex to clean hers and rubbed all the letters off. Other than that have not had any holes and love the quite short stroke keys. Now when I here someone clicking away on a normal keyboard it seems so weird.

  • it was just a humid cloth with a bit of dish cleaner.
    It is just a littel defekt. Shift key is the only key that has
    any probblems.

  • Since Tim Cook I have just too much options,
    n-times iPhones, x3 M1 devices which delivery times will heavily
    differ by RAM choice ....

  • Michael Mayer
    edited November 2020

    So it looks like we have the confirmation that on M1 devices basically
    following 3D/CAD Apps are running via Rosetta.

    So far all those testers are very impressed by the power of these nominally
    weak devices and that you can run such App at all.
    Looks like you can do 90% of your standard 3D task without problems,
    basic tasks like web browsing, office, .... like a charm

    But there are also some reports of unexpected crashes.
    Some may just be Big Sur bugs, Apple Silicon Firmware bugs, Rosetta2 bugs
    that can be fixed by Software or Firmware Updates.

    Looks like the 8 GB versions can basically do the same jobs as the 16 GB versions,
    but when it gets very demanding, take about 10+% longer to complete.

    But my glass ball says, if you have a single App, that has a single Task, that
    needs more RAM than available, it will not only get slow but crash (?)
    Like importing a gigantic IFC/RVT or dealing with gigantic geometries like
    refineries models.

  • Great article. Kinda skipped thru some of it but it makes since and is the way of the future. I know Microsoft was working on Windows for ARM but I doubt there are any companies out there ready to release a SOC Windows machine. Thats going to take years after they realize what Apple did to have a finished product. Apple will be able to drop prices to more PC levels with better performance and faster performance improvements and no bottlenecks. Cool cool

  • EdwardC
    edited December 2020

    Hello all, I have a perpetual ARES Commander license as well as my perpetual BricsCAD license. I really prefer BricsCAD over ARES but ARES is a very very good alternative. For anyone who currently has an M1 Mac the following was announced today. "ARES Commander 2022 supports the new ARM64 architecture. This is important because Apple is phasing out the Intel processors. Soon, all the new Mac computers will be sold with Apple designed processors based on ARM64. So, for a period of time, there will be Mac users working with Intel processors and others working with ARM64 processors.
    We will support both with ARES Commander. Starting from the Beta of ARES Commander 2022, the same setup can be used for both Intel and Silicon processors." At the moment you can download the beta should you wish to give it a try... Ed

  • If by soon you mean 2 years but that is cool that they already adopted it. I think seeing how fast some companies adopt it, that it may not be that hard to do. It will be very cool to see Bricscad native as it already runs very well even with Rosetta 2.

  • No 2022 will be released this April.
  • betazero
    edited December 2020

    No I meant that Macs with Intel will not be phased out for 2 years. It will be like the Power Pc to Intel switch but it seems much smoother so far.

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