Drawing view export applying different scaling factors
Has anyone but me noticed that _VIEWEXPORT doesn't always apply proper scaling factors to 2D views? I first complained of this bug back when V15 was introduced, and have now submitted another SR. I don't like dimensioning the 2D views on paper space views. I've encountered numerous problems with it. One issue is the reliability of setting a UCS origin for ordinate dimensioning. I find that grabbing a UCS origin through a viewport doesn't always work. Sometimes you think you have obtained a particular snap, but you have not. Another issue I have is cross sections, and detail views. I just don't have the flexibililty I need in a layout tab.
Take a look at the drawing views I exported to model space in the attached *.DWG. Even though I exported all the views at the same time, different scaling factors were applied. In this case, I knew immediately that I had a mistake, because I knew what dimensions I applied to the 3D models. But with some projects, I might not create 2D views until weeks after the 3D models are done.
Comments
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Incidentally, I am using V17.2.08.
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Hi Jim,
In your sample drawing I didn't find that the 2D profiles were scaled differently to the 3D objects, perhaps I've missed something?
However, I did find it difficult to snap accurately to points, which made it difficult to measure anything accurately. I ran OVERKILL on each of the generated 2D profiles to remove numerous overlapping lines. After doing this, I found it much easier to make accurate measurements.
Regards,
Jason Bourhill
CAD Concepts0 -
Hi Jim,
You could try the latest V17 update. I see the V17.2.12 release notes includes improvements to generated views.
Regards,
Jason Bourhill
CAD Concepts0 -
@Jason Bourhill said:
Hi Jim,In your sample drawing I didn't find that the 2D profiles were scaled differently to the 3D objects, perhaps I've missed something?
However, I did find it difficult to snap accurately to points, which made it difficult to measure anything accurately. I ran OVERKILL on each of the generated 2D profiles to remove numerous overlapping lines. After doing this, I found it much easier to make accurate measurements.
Regards,
Jason Bourhill
CAD ConceptsJason, please look at the dimensions I applied to the 2D views. They CLEARLY show an error. One angle iron is 1.2 x 1.2" instead of 1.5" x 1.5", the size of the 3D model. I don't have problems snapping to anything in model space. I DO have problems applying dimensions in layout tabs! Numerous overlapping lines? How would you know unless you exploded the blocks? Does overkill even work on blocks? And If there are overlapping lines within the blocks, they were generated by the tool that makes the 2D views. I didn't create the blocks, the tool did. Finally, I have to ask this... I spent years doing 2D designs in model space, applying my dimensions there. When it was time to print my drawing, I framed the model space objects in a viewport from the layout tab / template. If accurate snapping is no longer possible on 2D views located in model space, how am I going to maintain and edit my hundreds of 2D drawings?
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Jason,
Perhaps the drawing got corrupted when you downloaded it. Here it is again. I highlighted the errors.0 -
It seems that exporting multiple _ViewBase views with different scales at the same time is the cause of your issue. Note: Tested on V16.2.15. To avoid this problem make sure you export each view separately.
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@Roy Klein Gebbinck said:
It seems that exporting multiple _ViewBase views with different scales at the same time is the cause of your issue. Note: Tested on V16.2.15. To avoid this problem make sure you export each view separately."Exporting with different scales is the cause of your issues" Huh? Roy, you really lost me... I didn't request different scales. I don't even know how to request different scales. I simply selected the command option that exports ALL 2D views from the layout page. Why should the export operation apply different scales to different views? It's a bug, admit it!
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@Jim Canale said:
"Exporting with different scales is the cause of your issues" Huh? Roy, you really lost me... I didn't request different scales. I don't even know how >to request different scales. I simply selected the command option that exports ALL 2D views from the layout page. Why should the export >operation apply different scales to different views? It's a bug, admit it!I don't think it's necessarily a bug, I think it suffers from being poorly documented. I also think it is probably only being used by a small group of BricsCAD users, therefore if there are bugs it's less likely to be reported. The functionality is similar to a set of commands in AutoCAD, but it differs in interaction and features. The resulting views aren't compatible with the ones created in AutoCAD & vice versa. This isn't really an issue, but in comparison to other more common commands, you can't lean on AutoCAD documentation if you find the BricsCAD documentation comes up short.
In your case I found it a little difficult to interpret your drawing, as it didn't have a VIEWBASE generated layout on it, therefore couldn't readily repeat your workflow. I created a separate model and tried exporting the views using VIEWEXPORT and EXPORTLAYOUT (see attached). I got the same results as Roy using V17.2.12. VIEWEXPORT of a single view created a 1:1 output on a new drawing, If I selected all the views, then they were exported at their viewport scale, similar to the result that your get with EXPORTLAYOUT. Once you know this, it is relatively easy to fix. The views are exported as blocks, scaled to the viewport scale, to fix you just update the scale to 1.
I think your swimming a little upstream using this workflow. VIEWBASE is intended for the user to generate all the annotation in paper space. I agree it is an issue if you make any subsequent changes to the model, as dimensions disassociate (I would definitely class this as a bug/short coming, as it's a severe limitation). In your case you want to annotate in model space, there are other commands you could use to generate these 2d views.
Personally I prefer the methodology used with BIMSECTION. While it's a little more involved to setup, it allows you a high degree of control of how you work with the generated 2d data, such as leaving you to choose whether you annotate in model space or paper space.
Regards,
Jason Bourhill
CAD Concepts0 -
@Jason Bourhill:
Your comment about disassociated dimensions surprises me. I thought that _ViewBase views with associated dimensions were possible in V17. See the section on the GENERATEASSOCVIEWS variable in the Release Notes.Note:
The _ViewExport command does not export using the scaling of the original views. If multiple views are selected the view with the biggest scale is exported at a 1:1 scale and, to preserve the original layout, all other views are scaled relatively. Maybe an option to export all views scaled 1:1 should be added to the command?0 -
Jason,
Where do I update the scale to "1"? Are you talking about the X, Y, and Z scales in the property manager? Am I going to have to select every view I exported and make sure it wasn't set to something other than "1"?
Jason and Roy,
I appreciate your replies but I don't agree. Why on earth would you want to create 2D views in MODEL SPACE with different scaling than the 3D models associated with those views? We create our 3D objects in model space at FULL SCALE. That's a fundamental principle of Autocad, Intellicad, and BricsCAD. It's understandable that these applications scale model space objects to fit a PAPER SPACE viewport. After all, you can't fit an aircraft carrier on 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper. But everything in model space should remain full scale, or at least allow the operator to set that by default. If the program doesn't tell me what it intends to do with the scale of objects it's placing in model space, then I call that a dangerous bug. The Help menu makes no mention whatsoever about the _viewexport command assigning arbitrary scaling to objects.
Bricsys support has made it clear to me on several occasions that quirks and "inconveniences" (bugs?) which mirror those of Autocad will not be removed, because they strive to duplicate the behavior of Autocad (for compatibility sake). One can make the case that they've broken their compatibility promise by abandoning the hundreds of old drawings I created with Autocad, before Autodesk developed paper space drawing views. I should be able to edit or add to those old model space 2D views without fearing random scaling changes. I think Bricsys can offer better performance, usability, and stability than Autocad, while offering the same features and compatibility.
If Bricsys wants me to place 2D views in paper space, it's going to have to offer me much better, and more reliable dimensioning and annotating tools than they currently do. The detail, and cross section tools are not versatile enough to do the job for me. And I stand by my assertion that the buggy selection of UCS origins through a paperspace viewport, makes ordinate dimensioning totally unreliable. It would take a while to demonstrate it here, but I thoroughly made the case to the support staff. i also can't live with paper space dimensioning that disassociates from the 3D model when the 3D model is moved or refreshed, or due to unknown, random causes.
I know this is off subject, but I can't help to mention the bugs in assemblies. because the issue is similar. I can't tell you how many times the links to components have broken. rendering my assembly unusable. Even when the links remains intact, I find that edits to components are not always reflected in the assembly. I was told I could revert my assemblies to "local". But that doesn't always work either. I have returned to building my assemblies with local components in the same drawing. The DWG's become huge, but at least they don't break, and so much easier to forward one drawing to a vendor than folder with subfolders.
This is all going to sound like a rant, and I'm sorry about that... but I have heard too many excuses lately.
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One last thing.. Why the heck won't _viewbase allow me to place 1:1 2D views in MODEL SPACE? Why must I be forced to a layout tab, and then to export back into model space? The old tool (think it was called "quickview"), allowed me to put my views in model space.
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@Jim Canale:
At least a part of your frustration stems from an unfamiliarity with the _ViewBase command. You should look it up in the Help. The _preseTs option allows to specify a fixed scale for views thereby avoiding the initial problem entirely.Note:
The View Scale setting is only used if the Preset option is not 'None' (which seems strange to me).0 -
@Roy Klein Gebbinck said:
Your comment about disassociated dimensions surprises me. I thought that _ViewBase views with associated dimensions were possible in V17. See the section on the GENERATEASSOCVIEWS variable in the Release Notes.Yes, when checked, I found that I didn't have GENERATEASSOCVIEWS. A short coming in the HELP is that there isn't cross referencing to SETTINGS related to commands. A small setting change such as this can make a big difference to your impressions on a command.
Turning GENERATEASSOCVIEWS on improves dimension associativity, but it still fails in particular cases. In the attached examples, I added some dimensions to the VIEWBASE layout, then updated the model. For the example with out any radial edges the dimensions remained associated. For the example with radial edges (Similar to Jim's), associativity to the VIEWBASE was lost. It would seem BricsCAD has an issue with retaining associativity to dimensions related to tangential edges.
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Thanks for the update Jason.
I'll send in an SR regarding the View Scale issue.0 -
Roy and Jason,
Thank you both for your replies.
Roy,
If I'm unfamiliar with the _ViewBase command, it's because I don't spend any time in layouts, fitting views or dimensioning. I export the 2Dviews to model space immediately. I spent weeks trying to dimension views in layout tabs, and found the tools insufficient for my work.
If I understand you correctly, unless I force a specific scale factor for each 3D model, _viewbase may MAY select different scale factors. And when exported to model space, will no longer be scaled the same as originating 3D models. I maintain that this is very bad. The program should remember what scale factors were applied, and act accordingly. No 2D view dumped back into model space should be anything but a 1:1 representations of the 3D objects they represent.
Jason,
I wasn't aware of the GENERATEASSOCVIEWS variable. When we moved up to V15, it was apparently defaulted to "ON", because I was able to make changes to my 3D model and see them reflected in 2D views on the layout tab. But sometimes they weren't. And running _viewupdate didn't always work either. Sometimes even an accidental movement of the 3D model would BREAK all the 2D views. That coupled with my inability to create the cross sections and detail views I need, as well as the bugs in setting a UCS origin, convinced me that that my best option was to export 2D views back into model space.
All of this grief could be avoided if _viewbase afforded me the opportunity to place 2D views in model space, at a default 1:1 ratio. The capability was there with the old quickview command.
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@Jim Canale:
I hope that this topic has shed some light on how the initial problem came about and how it can be avoided. I have certainly learned something while looking into this. But for bug reports and feature requests you should really contact Bricsys.To summarize:
3 solutions have been mentioned:
- _ViewExport the _ViewBase views to model space one by one.
- After exporting multiple views that have different scales, change the scaling of all the BM_VIEWCONTENT_* block references to 1.
- Use the _preseTs option of the _ViewBase command to set a fixed scale for all new _ViewBase views. Note: Do not choose Preset 'None' in the dialog. These presets are stored in the registry so you only have to do this once.
Without presets _ViewBase views are scaled to fit the page using scales from the Scale List. Editing this list ( _ScaleListEdit command) and removing certain, confusing, scales can be useful. If the Scale List does not contain scales larger than 1:1 and the page size is much bigger than the model all _ViewBase views will be scaled 1:1.
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Sorry Roy, I don't agree. If this is not a BUG, I don't know what is...., Although your workarounds address the problem, they involve a lot of additional steps and slow down my work. I create a half dozen drawings a DAY. The program should keep track of the scales it assigns, and act accordingly when it exports back to model space. Don't tell me that every time you generate 2D views, you stop to confirm what scale is being assigned to each. Why should I? Model space is home to 1:1 models. It makes no logical sense for the program to dump incorrectly scaled 2D views there. I keep track of enough stuff as it is. I don't need more steps to get 2D views where I want them. And Bricsys can't claim I am asking for a new feature, either. V14's QuickView allowed the placement of 2D views directly into model space without going through the extra steps.
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